Caelum questions, both themes.

[Liadran]

Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Lets first see what changes from base Caelum in RotR.

Mages:
Loses the best mage in game. Seraph costs more and is capital only. Raptors get Harab Seraph and Harab Elder.
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air
Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

In the end Raptors lose much in water, some in air, much in randoms but they gain much in death and earth. It's must to learn how to use those magics effectively with air and their troops to compete.

Priests:
Raptors loses Seraphim (a very good priest as pointed) and gets 2 holy to their Elder. Lose much precious holy 3. Still they have access to Seraphim in PD (makes sense as Raptors are only the ruling society).

Troops:
Lose the (precious to many) only sacred unit Temple Guard. Get Raptor and the most amazing Ravens Guard. For Raptor strategies this is a very good thing. Ravens Guard used right (and Raptors can do it) is just amazing. They have the attack punch almost all of the Caelum troops miss.

Cold:
They lose some of the cold benefits.

Most of the main changes are here.


Thematically Raptors are a good theme in my opinion. Raptors coming back to rule the society through their magics (mainly death and earth here). They haven't got the cold resistance. But the people of Caelum do have it still. That's why changing the cold preference to 0 or 1 is not a good idea. Most of the people living in Caelum still prefer it and should have thier best income in cold +3. It would ruin the theme to lower it as their people still like it.


About strategies:

Raptors are not your HI country. If you prefer HI in every one of your strategies, then Raptors are not the country for you. For earlier expansion Raptors do have other keys than Mammoth/Wingless strategy. Using low level spells and archers backed up by h seraph and h elder or 2-3 h seraphs can take care of most of the independents (even knights and HI easily). Mammoth is expensive and that's why have high upkeep also. Mages can be recruited one / turn, so it's slower method, but high cost of mammoths makes that also slow.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also). Also pretender choice is narrower than with base Caelum. You need to make sure that you can get something to raise your earth magic to get needed items and spells.

In the essence to get the best out of Raptors one can't just go with normal Caelum strategies. Getting the best out of earth and death is very important and using Raven's Guard and summons (mostly different than base Caelum) effectively.


About the changes proposed here:

Making Raven's Guard a sacred unit is ok but not necessary. I don't see Raptors as the sacred theme. They're fallen and not that sacred to me. Wingless sacred, hopely never.

Holy 3 to harab elder. This is more a death nation than a holy nation. Holy 3 is very good, but I wouldn't give it to Raptors. It would also make H Elder to cost more, which is not a good idea for Raptors. Death and summon approach makes morele a bit lesser problem so one can go with only holy 2.

One air to random with H Elder is ok. But can very well go without. That random mostly makes them more powerfull.

Starting spell can be changed, no problem. But changing it to blight or call of the wind would make Raptors weaker. Thematically many spells are good. Wind Guide is just as ok.

Removing old units (other than Temple Guard) is not thematically a good idea. Doesn't fit the theme that well to lose units that still exist in your society. Othervise wouldn't care that much to lose Spirehorns to Raptors. Mammuth and Wingless or Gryphon idead are also ok. I don't use Mammoth that much with Raptors (as it's not that needed). Losing Mammoth might make people think about other strategies. Mostly the theme should be kept in mind in my opinion (and it's also a good one).

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Ask (or point out) what you want and I'll try to answer back as well as possible. Got a bit long this one.

[Vodalian]

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

[DLC]

Staff of storms is overpowered, way way to overpowered, not to mention it totally kills my abysian devil factory strategy

[Liadran]

Raptors have more options initially (because of their magic choices) to hurt enemy economy than base Caelum, the increase is not that huge, but can be significant in a dedicated economy strike.

It's true that High Seraph are much better in late game than Harab Seraphs, and that lack of water gives a disadvantage in water provinces. But the research is better and that counts for much initially.

Single pick in earth does in fact negate weapon array flaw a little. In early expansion that counts for much. Items can increase it later. Base Caelum is not that efficient in their earth approach and that gives them a flaw.

Dominion can't be forgotten. But without Hearth of Winter and Seraphines you can't push your dominion that efficiently in border provinces. That means that it's not that cold there than in your inner lands. In inner lands you don't need that cold resistance that much. But this is hard point in playing Raptors. They are definitely weaker in cold approach.

About lightning defence. Everyone will expect lightning from Caelum and keep that in mind (at least veterans). Battlefield placement, items and spells can decrease effectiveness of lighting attacks (let's forget spells over 7th level). I know that Thunder Ward gives 50% resistance. But that is a defence. It's not immunity (I never said about making it useless), but a good defence. Reducing those damages by half (especially with Orb Lightning, one of the best lighting spells) is quite important, it takes some edge away from you. It really doesn't make air-3 mage useless, but reduces their effectiveness. Never rely too much on lighting even with base Caelum, have to have other approaches in mind also.

Originally posted by Liadran:
Raptors have more options initially (because of their magic choices) to hurt enemy economy than base Caelum, the increase is not that huge, but can be significant in a dedicated economy strike.

This doesn't give you any more gems to use per turn, so I don't see it as being an 'improvement' over base which has just as good of a spell in Hurricane.

It's true that High Seraph are much better in late game than Harab Seraphs, and that lack of water gives a disadvantage in water provinces. But the research is better and that counts for much initially.

This may be playstyle. It's not much more research. It's not like going from Jotun base to Jotun Niefel.

Single pick in earth does in fact negate weapon array flaw a little. In early expansion that counts for much. Items can increase it later. Base Caelum is not that efficient in their earth approach and that gives them a flaw.

I assume by this you mean earth boots that you would have to empower someone to forge, then go from there? That may be an option in SP, but not in MP. And that option is still open to Base Caelum because High Seraphs come with 1Random. Ironskin is still Alteration 3, so it's not *that* early of expansion. If they started with it, I could see it.

Dominion can't be forgotten. But without Hearth of Winter and Seraphines you can't push your dominion that efficiently in border provinces. That means that it's not that cold there than in your inner lands. In inner lands you don't need that cold resistance that much. But this is hard point in playing Raptors. They are definitely weaker in cold approach.

If you plan on not having a decent dominion, you are regulating a high percentage of your provinces to heavy economic penalties, since Caelum has Cold3 Preference.

About lightning defence. Everyone will expect lightning from Caelum and keep that in mind (at least veterans). Battlefield placement, items and spells can decrease effectiveness of lighting attacks (let's forget spells over 7th level). I know that Thunder Ward gives 50% resistance. But that is a defence. It's not immunity (I never said about making it useless), but a good defence. Reducing those damages by half (especially with Orb Lightning, one of the best lighting spells) is quite important, it takes some edge away from you. It really doesn't make air-3 mage useless, but reduces their effectiveness. Never rely too much on lighting even with base Caelum, have to have other approaches in mind also.

Uhm. That doesn't change anything. You can expect lightning and air elemental strikes all you want. It's not going to change that advantage. As Tuna stated, Thunder Strike hammers through 50% resistance just fine and Shock Wave works great. It's not as if your normal armies (or even summoned) are suddenly lightning resistant because you expect heavy lightning use or even have the mage type (air) to keep in your main armies. With the mobility of Caelum and Cloud Trapeze and the effectiveness of Wrathful Skies and Storm (still) you will have a hard time convincing me that suddenly you are going to have a Air Mage with gems ready for Thunder Ward in every province. It also doesn't stop Phantasmal units (Wolves and Armies) with use from Air. And the Spell AI is smart enough to switch it after your scripted spells.

And if you are talking about magekiller combatants geared towards resistances, most of your opponents are smart enough to pick up at least the resistances of the nation they are up against. So it wouldn't matter if you relied on Lightning or not.

If you enjoy and feel that RotR is great, that's fantastic, but with all the minor points that they take away from the base theme are not replaced and is nowhere near as versitile and thus in my mind weaker.

[ March 06, 2004, 10:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Liadran]

Hurricane is a good spell for hurting enemy economy, but the problem is that it's just one spell. So it just takes Air gems. Death and Earth both can inflict similar results, which covers 3 different gems. That's why you have more gems in overall to use. Also in the situation when that one gem is not to be found well you still have 2 other choices to go with.

About research High Seraph has 8 research points. Two Harab Seraphs have 10 research points together (and cost only 5 gold more). If you take positive magic scale (quite usual with Caelum) you get double the benefit. Also experience counts for double. With Magic scale +3 (and no experience) High Seraph has 11 points and 2 Harab Seraphs have 16 research points. A difference of 2-5 (without experience) is quite an important difference as it's only for 175 to 180 gold. Multiply that with other reserachers and the difference is very huge. (Base Caelum with Seraphs can do the same with 200 gold) But as said they're later use is not that good as with High Seraphs (being the best mages in game).

In this thread it was said before that Raptors have a more narrow choices for valiable pretender. It's very important to make sure that you have a pretender that has at least 2 in earth. Othervise you are giving up much strenght in earth. That can also be made with base Caelum, but in average you have 3 mages having an earth pick when you have 24 mages. And you can't count on getting those when you need them. And Ironskin is for not much use in initial expansion (also as you said Alt3 is too high early), Alt2 is enough and that you can get very quickly when you prepare your armies (and possibly your pretender). You don't need the armor for your mages early, hurting them is more important.

I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice). The problem is that you don't have Seraphim pushing your cold dominion and can't have Heart of Winter. Scales of +3 don't come that fast and that's why your borders propably don't have it. Even with a very high dominion it's hard to manage.

I'm not saying that Air 3 is not effective. It's awesomely effective in all it's variability. Lightning Strike is almost as good without 50% res or with it. And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea. I'm saying that troop placements, unit choices and etc... are easier to make against a certain overused threat than a variable threat. Relying too much on one thing has the problem of guessability and with it defences. Mostly the effect of this comes in huge battles, which are quite an important decisive factor in many wars. That little edge just might be enough.

I like RotR very much, but propably I like the base Caelum more. It's true that many minor (and major) points have been taken away, but there are replacements. You just have to look for them. Raptors are definitely much harder to play than base Caelum and needs lot's of thinking. But the strengts are there. Where does they lose their versatility in your opinion Zen?

Originally posted by Liadran:
Hurricane is a good spell for hurting enemy economy, but the problem is that it's just one spell. So it just takes Air gems. Death and Earth both can inflict similar results, which covers 3 different gems. That's why you have more gems in overall to use. Also in the situation when that one gem is not to be found well you still have 2 other choices to go with.

You have to search with these other gems, and I find with base Caelum, if you are using hurricane a bit; it's because you have nothing better you can forge/summon. The same could be said with the other two gem types.

About research High Seraph has 8 research points. Two Harab Seraphs have 10 research points together (and cost only 5 gold more). If you take positive magic scale (quite usual with Caelum) you get double the benefit. Also experience counts for double. With Magic scale +3 (and no experience) High Seraph has 11 points and 2 Harab Seraphs have 16 research points. A difference of 2-5 (without experience) is quite an important difference as it's only for 175 to 180 gold. Multiply that with other reserachers and the difference is very huge. (Base Caelum with Seraphs can do the same with 200 gold) But as said they're later use is not that good as with High Seraphs (being the best mages in game).

This doesn't kick in until you have 2+ Fortresses, and with the cost of High Seraphs, more than likely you are recruiting 2 a turn of those as much as you would with Harab Seraphs (unless you are buying alot of mammoths). I never said that the research wasn't slightly better than base Caelum, but as I stated before the scope less of a variable, especially considering how I play Caelum.

In this thread it was said before that Raptors have a more narrow choices for valiable pretender. It's very important to make sure that you have a pretender that has at least 2 in earth. Othervise you are giving up much strenght in earth. That can also be made with base Caelum, but in average you have 3 mages having an earth pick when you have 24 mages. And you can't count on getting those when you need them. And Ironskin is for not much use in initial expansion (also as you said Alt3 is too high early), Alt2 is enough and that you can get very quickly when you prepare your armies (and possibly your pretender). You don't need the armor for your mages early, hurting them is more important.

So if you are saying there are less choices and you 'have' to take a pretender with Earth 2, you are using the Pretender to do the majority of the work with your "Earth" which base Caelum can do just as easily. I'd say a good % of base caelum games start with a Natarajah with 3 Earth. So that 1 Earth isn't all it's cracked up to be. Base Caelum with Alt 2, is about twice as effective as RotR with Alt 2. As you should note.

I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice). The problem is that you don't have Seraphim pushing your cold dominion and can't have Heart of Winter. Scales of +3 don't come that fast and that's why your borders propably don't have it. Even with a very high dominion it's hard to manage.

I haven't found it to be so. Like I said though that is entirely a playstyle issue. The significant gold impact of a lower dominion may be why some of your other arguments don't seem that much of an issue.

I'm not saying that Air 3 is not effective. It's awesomely effective in all it's variability. Lightning Strike is almost as good without 50% res or with it. And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea. I'm saying that troop placements, unit choices and etc... are easier to make against a certain overused threat than a variable threat. Relying too much on one thing has the problem of guessability and with it defences. Mostly the effect of this comes in huge battles, which are quite an important decisive factor in many wars. That little edge just might be enough.

That's true, but that's true of Every nation/theme in the game, so I don't see why Lightning or Caelum is singled out.

I like RotR very much, but propably I like the base Caelum more. It's true that many minor (and major) points have been taken away, but there are replacements. You just have to look for them. Raptors are definitely much harder to play than base Caelum and needs lot's of thinking. But the strengts are there. Where does they lose their versatility in your opinion Zen?

They lose the High Seraph = Water.
They lose the Seraphim = All things associated with a Base 3Holy Priest. This is especially significant with nations with temperature preference or units without ways to compensate for morale (I.E. Nature magic, Standards).
They lose the Temple Guard = The one recruitable unit of Caelum that isn't fragile. Work well with Water Magic.

They gain Harab Elder, Harab Seraph = Death Magic.
Death magic is not extremely versatile, but it can be very strong. The same can be said for Blood Magic.

The gain the Raven Guard = Non-Cold Protection based flying troop. I have had tremendous success with using Storm Guards and Iceclads in normal to heat temperatures. So these, while nice, don't offer me much as my thinking has been to adapted to using the Cold and so having a unit that doesn't lose protection in a normal/heat enviroment doesn't offer a solution to the fact that High Seraphs were the portion that gave the punch to an army. If I'm not using a heavy Cold Dominion I don't get as much gold, which means I can recruit less Raven Guard, which evens out more or less to the higher resource, but less gold Iceclads. In my experience 25 Raven Guard with 3 Harab Elders are less effective as 25 Iceclads with 3 High Seraphs in a normal enviroment even though the RotR costs more.

[ March 06, 2004, 20:04: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice).

Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.

And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea.

How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages?

[Chazar]

Originally posted by Zen:
In my experience 25 Raven Guard with 3 Harab Elders are less effective as 25 Iceclads with 3 High Seraphs in a normal enviroment even though the RotR costs more.

How do you script the mages, or is the AI clever enough for spell-picking?

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages?

Butterfly net?