Leo2A4 destroyed

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by scorpio_rocks

There are plenty of videos showing untrained "users" scoring hits with ATGMs but none showing the misses. I wonder how many are fired and miss / are countered?

OR is it really that easy to kill a MBT?

There is a pattern in all the videos. All the tanks being hit are static, on top of a hill, sometimes dug in as well and almost always hit from the sides. That means the turkish army (and the syrian one most of the time tbh) is using tanks as gun platforms most of the time, supporting by fire whatever operation is carried. Using tanks like this is quite tricky, since if you don't secure the area well (and they don't), you're quite vulnerable to attacks like this. Tanks are an offensive weapon and they perform excellent at this role. Using them as glorified direct artillery will be hard for the men and the machines.
It seems that the Turks try to use the irregular fighters they support as the grunts in this conflict. Problems is, they aren't exactly top notch fighters and in the latest disaster in Al-Bab, they fled, forcing Turkey to use a commando formation to do the trick. That didn't help them though. Anyway, the above strategy helped minimize casualties somehow, since if you see the service branch in the casualty list, armor together with special forces bears the brunt of suffering. However, none of them (especially armor) is used correctly as a result. If more infantry formations arrive and the irregulars are sidelined, it will help the turkish army perform better (which will mean they'll have more casualties though and it'll make their political leverage for this operation diminish).
Finally, it is quite debatable how much "untrained" the ISIS fighters are, considering they're doing this trick for over 3 years now and many of them were ex-military personnel.

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by Aeraaa

There is a pattern in all the videos. All the tanks being hit are static, on top of a hill, sometimes dug in as well and almost always hit from the sides. That means the turkish army (and the syrian one most of the time tbh) is using tanks as gun platforms most of the time, supporting by fire whatever operation is carried. Using tanks like this is quite tricky, since if you don't secure the area well (and they don't), you're quite vulnerable to attacks like this. Tanks are an offensive weapon and they perform excellent at this role. Using them as glorified direct artillery will be hard for the men and the machines.
It seems that the Turks try to use the irregular fighters they support as the grunts in this conflict. Problems is, they aren't exactly top notch fighters and in the latest disaster in Al-Bab, they fled, forcing Turkey to use a commando formation to do the trick. That didn't help them though. Anyway, the above strategy helped minimize casualties somehow, since if you see the service branch in the casualty list, armor together with special forces bears the brunt of suffering. However, none of them (especially armor) is used correctly as a result. If more infantry formations arrive and the irregulars are sidelined, it will help the turkish army perform better (which will mean they'll have more casualties though and it'll make their political leverage for this operation diminish).
Finally, it is quite debatable how much "untrained" the ISIS fighters are, considering they're doing this trick for over 3 years now and many of them were ex-military personnel.

Basically they make the mistakes a noob at winspmbt does when facing for the first time a human opponent.

[Aeraaa]

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/201...sion-to-syria/

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Aeraaa

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/201...sion-to-syria/

Sounds like rubbish. Propaganda hogwash. Okay, I admit rather crude language, however, my point is that an unsigned Internet piece should not be taken seriously.

So, I could not determine who the "he" is, nor ascertain a name for this so called purged NATO officer.

I could search the domain name for the owner of the site, but it is a Wordpress blog, not sure what information Wordpress publishes on blog owners, not the same as a domain name search I suspect, or maybe it is.

But, why waste my time on an unsigned Internet piece when there are a number of analysis conducted by reputed organizations with first rate analyst that do sign their pieces.

=====

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by Aeraaa

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/201...sion-to-syria/

I don't know if it is real or not, sounds believable enough but who knows!

I did find one thing funny.

“The others are not doing anything, we are the only ones fighting”

That sounds like most players of World of Tanks when their team is losing. For those who don't know, World of Tanks is an action online only game with tanks. Yes I play it a lot.

From what I read in this article, if it is accurate/real, it sounds pretty much possible. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. Outside of the loss of life, I don't feel that bad for their problems there. They are fantastic allies, friends and neighbors and all that.

[RecruitMonty]

Originally Posted by Aeraaa

To begin with, merry X-mas to everyone, best wishes to you and your families!

Now, on topic...

First of all, I don't understand why nationality prevents someone from commenting. Americans do comment on Russian military, Israelis on Arab militaries etc. Second, the Turks in the game have 73 BE and 77 morale in 2016. That puts them almost in the same league as France and Germany (around 75 BE IIRC) and actually with higher morale than both. They even have better xp and morale than Russian military (70 on both values), even though IMHO the latter is definitely more experienced and motivated (come to think of it the comtemporary Russian military is undervalued in the game).
Turkey isn't much more experienced or motivated than the average NATO countries that are in the 69-66 range. That is my point.
I do agree with what you said about hindsight though and I remembered that most events regarding Turkey happened after the latest update. One thing that is certain is that the coup attempt of July (and the purges that followed) did certainly have an effect on the ability of the Turkish military and I think that it should reflected in the next update (a drop in values after July 2016).

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.

[Suhiir]

Probably a reasonable assumption based on the Wehrmacht.
The regular German Army in WW II was pretty good for the most part, hardly the supermen some folks think they were, but certainly proficient and professional.

[RecruitMonty]

Originally Posted by Wdll

I don't know if it is real or not, sounds believable enough but who knows!

I did find one thing funny.

That sounds like most players of World of Tanks when their team is losing. For those who don't know, World of Tanks is an action online only game with tanks. Yes I play it a lot.

From what I read in this article, if it is accurate/real, it sounds pretty much possible. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. Outside of the loss of life, I don't feel that bad for their problems there. They are fantastic allies, friends and neighbors and all that.

I can believe what he is saying about the FSA. Post Obama Admin. I think you'd need to be a hard-core cool-aider not to.

NATO's involvement in all of this business in Syria is sketchy at best and it is not like any of the main press outlets in the West are actually on the ground over there.

Anyone who is tends to tell a different story. Either that or they are part of a "human right's organisation". In which case all things military are anathema (unless of course its the locals doing the killing in which case ...).

Russia, Iran and Assad's boys sure did seem rather busy though.

I'm glad no one is seriously talking about regime change anymore - handing the country over to the rebels was always a bad idea but now that the relationship between ISIS, Al Qaeda in Iraq, FSA and other Jihadi groups in Syria / Iraq has kind of been laid bare I think it would be an especially big ... lapse in judgement.

Lets chalk this one up to the wrong people sitting at the levers of power at the wrong time and hope that fresher winds will prevail.

[RecruitMonty]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Probably a reasonable assumption based on the Wehrmacht.
The regular German Army in WW II was pretty good for the most part, hardly the supermen some folks think they were, but certainly proficient and professional.

The Wehrmacht? The difference is night and day by now. In the 80s, maybe (the Grenies, Panzertruppen, Gebirgs- /Fallschirmjäger were really well drilled, had an abundance of great kit and some fine allied formations at their side to boot).

But nowadays I'd say morale isn't what it used to be. There was a real dip in the mid 2000s - politics was the cause (the then defence minister scrapped conscription, slashed funding, demobbed a bunch of units and then there was a "scandal" on a training ship of the Bundesmarine.

There are also too many foreigners in the ranks now that the army has been "professionalised". Generation snowflake doesn't want to serve in the ranks so you have to find your recruits somewhere else. A fair amount of Turks, Kurds, Albanians etc. - heh maybe that is why all those young men came to Germany recently .

Then there is Flinten Uschi .

(pictured with her friends)
http://www.lachschon.de/item/191964-...riegStrategen/

[DRG]

Originally Posted by RecruitMonty

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.

If I handed out the morale/experience lists to 100 players to modify to what they believe would be correct I'm betting I would get back 101 different lists. Few of which would be anything more than personal opinion.

The lists in the game now are our "personal opinions" based on our observations and given the number of nations and the number of decades involved the chances of them being 100% correct is about as likely as anyone proving them 100% wrong.

So........ don't like our numbers? Simple----- put in your own troop quality numbers.