MP: Apotheosis [Running]

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

I'm popping your bubble because you're already using your own propaganda before the game even begun, and are trying to use it to affect pregame decisions(such as the number of players in the game).

now, propaganda aside, you chose to be an UW nation, you know what you get from it. don't try to squeeze hidden advantages from game settings due to playing what you chose to play...

Indeed!

Hence my reasoning that Kakelake make the decisions. I'm all for scheming and manipulation, but in game - not in an attempt to skew the setup to your benefit. 10/10 for trying though FG!

Edit to add: The game is up on the server now for 11 players so the debate is academic...

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

I'm popping your bubble because you're already using your own propaganda before the game even begun, and are trying to use it to affect pregame decisions(such as the number of players in the game).

now, propaganda aside, you chose to be an UW nation, you know what you get from it. don't try to squeeze hidden advantages from game settings due to playing what you chose to play...

Wow, that's some heavy popping my friend. I fear I have no choice but to defend myself. Allow me to disagree with you:

- Influencing events for my gain? Sure, If you’re a player in the game I don’t see why your not allowed to bring relevant information to people's attention for your gain. And I see it all the time, ex. Asking for Ashod not to be in a game (as valid as it may be); suggesting a 2nd UW nation to be allowed as a single UW is more powerful/annoying; doing counter-propaganda ...etc, frankly I think at least for propaganda and counter propaganda you can wring some good fun out of it at least. I suppose I can sort of see how this is a grey area, but I'm not really seeing this clear line that your implying.

- I've never complained about my starting circumstances as your saying, in fact I thought I made it clear, no, emphasized that I wanted the nation precisely because of it. Whine? Never! Manipulate events for my benefit? Of course! (I'm no saint)

- Honestly, as I've said before, the 11 or 12 player deal didn't really mattered to me, though I won't deny that I'd accept a 12 ppl game with a smile. I was more interested in getting my analysis of the UW nations situation out for propaganda value in diplomacy at game start. (Though it's an honest analysis on my part, I just might as well wring some propaganda value out of it)

- If anything, I am closer to raising honest analysis to give my opening diplomacy more room when the game start. Let me see if I understand this correctly, the "Do not-s" that you are pointing out is that I'm doing this before the game starts?

-In a way, all those post asking for strats and so forth from players about to start MP games are in the same vein as my analysis here. I see the same MP game participants join the thread and work with the post alongside the poster, and I'd laugh if someone told me there's no scheming and tactical maneuvering in those post, the difference is perhaps I just come right out and say it.

Maybe I was misreading your the tone from your post and your really just playing along through counter-propaganda, if so I apologize, otherwise though I really must beg to differ.

Honestly I'm just trying to have fun and thought I have done it in an acceptable manner as outlined above. I will hereby thank Amadamus for being a good sport and playing along Yes I tried, maybe I tried too hard?

[Amadamus]

Finalgenesis, i pretty much read it as a counter to your spin - truth is irrelevant, all that really matters is how it looks to the punters...

Interesting session of banter however. Looking forward to the game and what may become of us all!

Enjoy all those gems you farm out of the oceans whilst we land types squabble over the ownership of poor value provinces.

[Finalgenesis]

And to counter your riposte, I sayeth "Enjoy shooting two fish in a barrel!"

Looking forward to it!

[13lackGu4rd]

Finalgenesis, if only all the information you presented was correct, truthful and objective than I would have laid it to rest. however you didn't even make an attempt to try, you simple chose to present the weaknesses of your UW position without any of its strengths, and in return asked for more land players so we'll be on more "even grounds". this statement is pure propaganda and is the main reason I started bursting your bubble. moreover, pregame diplomacy is perhaps the lowest you can go as far as propaganda spreading goes, we didn't even start for crying out loud!

now, since you insist, I'll give you some of your UW position's strengths, in your face, as counter propaganda. so, here we go:
1. free forts via pretty common nature sites UW, which both MA Oceania and R'lyeh can search right from the start.
2. Voice of Tiamat is the best remote site searching spell in the game!
3. once(if) the death match is over it's hard for any land nation to really contest the oceans due to your obvious superiority in UW battles and focused research(for the death match), while land nations focus their research elsewhere.
4. killing 1 opponent(your UW neighbor) makes your position so much stronger than a land nation killing even 2-3 of his neighbors(in the early game that is).
5. your ability to harass land powers is much greater than the land power's ability to harass you UW.

I hope this is enough for now, I could dig up more, and nation specific too, if you insist. now with your propaganda and my counter propaganda to you, everyone should be able to see the real picture and I expect people to know the UW's nations strengths and weaknesses even before all this mess...

now, lets see how many players we'll have playing, and what mods we'll use if any(CBM, EGD, vanilla), the sooner we know this information the sooner we can all start testing our pretender choices until we find the pretender we're happy with, so we can finally get this game going. now lets stop with all this pregame bull**** and wait for the game to actually start!

[Kadelake]

The game is (re)-created as Apotheosis3. Mods: CBM 1.6, EGD 1.4. We'll keep the 11 player maximum. Diplomacy is not enforced. Ashdod is allowed.

SplendidTuesday: Sorry, the game is full right now. If a spot becomes free for some reason I'll send you a PM.

Greyjoy's friend: I noticed that you've uploaded you pretender. Please get your forum account working and post something here. I can't let you join otherwise.

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

Finalgenesis, if only all the information you presented was correct, truthful and objective than I would have laid it to rest. however you didn't even make an attempt to try, you simple chose to present the weaknesses of your UW position without any of its strengths, and in return asked for more land players so we'll be on more "even grounds". this statement is pure propaganda and is the main reason I started bursting your bubble. moreover, pregame diplomacy is perhaps the lowest you can go as far as propaganda spreading goes, we didn't even start for crying out loud!

now, since you insist, I'll give you some of your UW position's strengths, in your face, as counter propaganda. so, here we go:
1. free forts via pretty common nature sites UW, which both MA Oceania and R'lyeh can search right from the start.
2. Voice of Tiamat is the best remote site searching spell in the game!
3. once(if) the death match is over it's hard for any land nation to really contest the oceans due to your obvious superiority in UW battles and focused research(for the death match), while land nations focus their research elsewhere.
4. killing 1 opponent(your UW neighbor) makes your position so much stronger than a land nation killing even 2-3 of his neighbors(in the early game that is).
5. your ability to harass land powers is much greater than the land power's ability to harass you UW.

I hope this is enough for now, I could dig up more, and nation specific too, if you insist. now with your propaganda and my counter propaganda to you, everyone should be able to see the real picture and I expect people to know the UW's nations strengths and weaknesses even before all this mess...

now, lets see how many players we'll have playing, and what mods we'll use if any(CBM, EGD, vanilla), the sooner we know this information the sooner we can all start testing our pretender choices until we find the pretender we're happy with, so we can finally get this game going. now lets stop with all this pregame bull**** and wait for the game to actually start!

Well, I must apologize that my analysis was not "correct, truthful and objective" to your brand of truth. I did thought it was a honest summation on the predicaments I face, I didn't quite expect a full comprehensive laundry list breakdown of the pros and cons to be required. Do people really want me to spell out that MA R'yleth can do mind-hunts, have stealth astral mage assassins, that water provinces tend to have easier indies ...etc? If you would like, I certainly wouldn't mind you filling in the whole Objective truths for me, after all, you are perfectly objective and incapable of pure propaganda if I'm reading you right.

In the context of counter-propaganda I'd take it like a champ, but your implication of that I was "dirty" and "low" outside of the context of the game just made me laugh. For the sake of civility I won't quote any hypocrisy I spotted unless, of course, you insist.

Hmmm well... you may certainly drop your pregame bullpoop if you like, I don't mind. I would object to you enforcing your special brand of saintly justice on me though. In fact, just let me enjoy my "bullpoop" with other willing participants instead of picking it up and smearing yourself with it. You know, it'll make you dirty, why subject yourself to it?

Well it's gotten to that point , I think we can agree we have divergent opinions on the issue and abandon further discourse on this matter, it is obvious neither of use will change our mind and further discussions would be... counter-productive.

[Verjigorm]

Fine, fine. That's 2 against Ashdod, so if you will permit me to switch, I'll take...

Abysia

instead.

[Kadelake]

Please calm down everyone. Diplomacy and propaganda are best kept until the game start.

I think it's high time we get the game going. I'll PM everyone who haven't joined and tell them they can upload their pretenders now

As for starting positions... You can never count on them being fair, even with fewer players. Some people will draw the short straw. Happened to me last game I played, I was stuck in the middle of a swamp, surrounded by wasteland on one side and Lanka on the other. Kind of thematic for Sauromatia but it still sucked
So what I'm trying to say is: try not to get angry at a bad starting position.

[Kadelake]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Abysia

Do as you like. I'm ok with Ashdod as well.