Ban-a-thon

[Sensori]

Originally Posted by Humakty

Not caring about the rules is considered enougth to be punished (well, more often than not), in our western world.

No it's not. You aren't punished for not caring about the rules, but for breaking the rules. Otherwise no one could say anything bad about any laws in place, since that in itself would be a violation. That's the difference between a supposedly democractic Western country and a totalitarian regime. And there are some rules that are bent constantly with very little consequence (like jaywalking; how often do people get fined for that?).

Plus creating a special case for someone tends to weaken the rule overall, and, to speak frankly, I see enougth of priviledged people at work, and in real life, for not having to bear with some on the forum I do occasionally frequent.

Yes, because **** is treason and the only appropriate response to it is exile. Just because you're jealous of other people's good fortunes in real life doesn't mean that they actually are more privileged in any other sense than having more cash and other material wealth than you. Unless you live in a country with rampant corruption, of course.

Not that I personnally care much about the outcome of this conflict. Whatever will be fine for me.

But you still care enough to post about it!

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by Sensori

No it's not. You aren't punished for not caring about the rules, but for breaking the rules. Otherwise no one could say anything bad about any laws in place, since that in itself would be a violation. That's the difference between a supposedly democractic Western country and a totalitarian regime. And there are some rules that are bent constantly with very little consequence (like jaywalking; how often do people get fined for that?).

Yes, because **** is treason and the only appropriate response to it is exile. Just because you're jealous of other people's good fortunes in real life doesn't mean that they actually are more privileged in any other sense than having more cash and other material wealth than you. Unless you live in a country with rampant corruption, of course.

But you still care enough to post about it!

Real law doesn't apply to forums. A better comparison would be a game with rules, say like golf. If another golfer shoved you every time you tried to make a shot, it would make the game more fun for me to watch, but I definitely wouldn't blame the PGA for not allowing the guy to play anymore. And I doubt any appeal he made on the basis that what he was doing was not against the law would have any affect on the ban.

Let's say you warn the guy to quit shoving other golfers and he basically gives a smart remark like "Oh no, your punishment doesn't phase me", you would probably escalate the punishment to a point to get him to stop shoving other golfers.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Peter was directly and specifically attacking and baiting Maerlande. Even if english is somehow not his first language, that is no defense of his conduct.

This is the thread:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=45501

I certainly was out of line in that thread by the end of it, no doubt about that, and I accepted so publically in my last post in that thread... while most of the rest of you were busy trolling for responses.

I was trolled by Maerlande in post #10, when he explained that this wasn't a thread with serious posts, that his posts #1 and #5 were "irony" (not any definition of irony I know of covers that), and people should seek information other places to understand what it was about and that he knew perfectly well what he was doing and didn't seek help in a thread asking for help after both I and Verjigorm had tried to give helpful advice based on what was written in the first post.

It may not have been his intention to troll for responses with that response, but that is certainly the effect such a post has on people who have tried to give helpful advice and haven't yet realized that it is to be an evening with otherwise well-known posters spamming worthless and trolling posts all over the place and mocking those who don't "get it" in a puerile protest against something they see as a great injustice.

I swallowed his bait (whether he intended it to be so or not) hook, line, and sinker and answered in post #19 that I would have to beg to differ with his conclusion that he knew exactly well what he was doing, which, given the information provided until then in the thread about the in-game situation he was describing was a very reasonable answer, and suggested that in case he was using his so-called "irony" again, he was wasting other peoples' time with his posting.

Which was, as it turned out, most definitely the case. My advice was completely worthless due to not understanding the constraints of the game has was talking about, but as Maerlande apparently had no intention whatsoever to enlighten those of us who were trying to help him based on what he wrote about the constraints of the game, I find it hard to fault myself for giving worthless advice in this case.

In response, Maerlande in post #21 told me that it was only wasting my time if I was stupid and didn't understand what the thread was really about and he threw in the standard "But I'd never call you stupid. That's a banning offence." - this is a typical weasel attempt at evading forum rules by pretending not to be breaking them or, more charitably, an attempt at appearing witty while directly insulting somebody to their face.

Grame Dice in post #22 was the first poster to actually provide useful information on the situation Maerlande was talking about (which situation was not the one he wanted to discuss, apparently, because he didn't want any help despite asking about it - he just wanted to post another "sombre" thread as part of his forum spam).

I returned to the thread, threw my hands up in disgust at the by now rampant trolling, and posted a post #32 declaring my disgust with his trolling tactics and not intending to write a serious thread with an appropriate subject/OP - and performed a counter-weasel after suggesting that he post threads in a sensible manner by saying "Failing that, you can act like a real smeg-head, though I'd never call you a smeghead. That might a banning offense (depending on the amount of Red Dwarf sympathizers amongst the moderaters)."

By this time most everybody and his goat who were "in" on the joke/crisis/whine were posting trolling posts in the thread, and I wrote a sorrowful post as #48 in which I stated that the I despised the sort of in-jokes and trolling that the rest of you were imposing on the forum, that I hoped it wasn't a sign of things to come, and that we were probably all in violation of the forum rules by that point in the thread (with a few exceptions in which I did specifically NOT include myself, because I quite agree that my counter-weasel in #32 was probably over the line).

"Specifically attacking and baiting Maerlande"? Rational minds beg to differ if one assumes, as I do, that the purpose of threads are to discuss whatever topic is raised in the first post.

[Sensori]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

Real law doesn't apply to forums. A better comparison would be a game with rules, say like golf.

That analogue's no better than the real life analogue, and I was only responding to the other person's "but if you talk against rules in real life you get punished!" line. And why would I say it's no better? Because these are forums for a game, not the game itself. And as you know, you can have any number of forums, official or unofficial. Golf has its own mechanics, its own rules, as does Dominions 3. The analogue works between games, but not between a forum and a game.

People can just pack up and leave a forum if they feel that they've been wronged. You can't do that quite as easily with a game, be it a professional one like golf or Dominions 3.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Humakty

Not caring about the rules is considered enougth to be punished (well, more often than not), in our western world.

Everyone knows this for sure, even the most scandalous of punks, so no one should even be slightly surprised about the actual outcome of the present struggle.

This true, you see police officers do this often. But the police officers themselves get then punished for not following the law. Sadly, a lot of officers also get away with this kind of behavior. This is also why people are mad. Not because Sombre was punished. He should have been. But because the punishment broke the rules shrapnel said they would follow.

All the talk about "he had it coming", "we have been watching him for some time" was not transparant. He should have had infractions and tempbans first.

The quote by Humakty is also why punkers and squatters have a large distrust for anyone in power. They have seen the abuse of people in power firsthand.

About the Ballbarian incident:
That one could have been seen as a joke, if it was in context of the game. "If you take province x,y I will make your life a living hell". Which is normal ballbusting and macho "i'm in a position of power (please don't attack me" bluff behaviour. But this was in context of a moderation action. So Sombre saw it as a power trip. A threat by the moderators. And he isn't somebody whos buttons you should push. (Which the moderators know, "we have been watching him for some time" remember).

He felt warned more than Sept for the whole incident. And the stuff escalated from there.

[Sensori]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

I was trolled by Maerlande in post #10,

No you weren't. I can see he just explained the reason behind the thread and that the situation sort of related to something that really happened. In fact, what he was trying to do was to get you and the other guy out of the thread civilly before it would turn into a flame war.

And the form of irony he was using was the kind used in this particular picture. Since he had actually gone through a situation much like the one he actually described, but he knew exactly what had gone wrong and whatnot.

[Humakty]

I was rather punky when younger, if that brings some light on my comments.... So I do bear with 'atrocious rule breakers', mind you.

But I'm older now, and I can understand how this attitude can upset other people. Tolerance has to be a two way road, or it is worthless.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Humakty

Tolerance has to be a two way road, or it is worthless.

True, some things did after the banning of Sombre where also way out of line. (The images thread for example). But I still think both sides where out of line.

[Sensori]

Oh, but it appears that Sombre was banned not for breaking the rules, for which he only got 10 infraction points, but for saying, in a PM, that he didn't care about the mods and their infraction points (which largely don't affect your forum life until you get a whole bunch of 'em, so there's not much reason to care about them when you just have ten). Since to him they are just strangers.

I doubt a policeman would incarcerate you just for saying that you don't care about a ticket and the law enforcement, either, as long as you aren't being aggressive about it (I doubt Sombre was doing an ALL CAPS I H8 U ALL at the mods), if you want an analogue.

[Tim Brooks]

Okay we are back to explaining what everyone can see for themselves. I'm locking the thread. Why is it so hard for people just to let others read the thread and draw their own conclusions from the facts?

As to the sombre incident, that has been beaten to death.