Yomi 3.21

[KissBlade]

If you have utterdark, Caelum raiding will completely flop against you. Otherwise, high pd will fend off minor raids on your valuable provinces while your pretender mind hunts (EA Caelum takes quite some time to build up death gems for spectres and if they're at that stage to comfortably field say 6 spectres, then you're at the stage to comfortably swap to earth attacks), mixed with earth attacks from your dai oni's. Larger groups of eagle kings can be manifested down and ghost rider/arouse hunter really cleans out some caelum. Mix in troops that're lightning immune lead by thugs with rings of tamed lightning ( which you should have access too). Remember they can script against thugs or script against remote armies. Never both. Also your dominions is heat 3 which is not fun for Caelum armies. If they're going to wolven winter ahead, that's another loss of gems for them. That and just attack them back. Caelum doesn't really have anything special against demons/undeads anyway outside of demon bane and you destroy them in melee combat regardless. (I have no idea what seraphs with demon banes are going to do if you're surrounded with chaff that fatigues them down and eats them up after. They have no hp so even a fireball will blow them up) DArkness makes Caelum laughable. Also if they're buffing their troops, you can buff yours. And your buffs are better because you have earth access. Army of gold > Wrathful skies. WEapons of Sharpness + Strength of giants will clean house. Honestly I'd find the classic Caelum strategy (wrathful skies/mists of deception/living clouds/thunder strike) more frustrating than any specific undead/demon counters suggested. BTW, if any nation knows what they 're doing and has a significant gem/research/gold advantage on you, you're boned 9 out of 10. Because chances a re you will also be outplayed.

[KissBlade]

*Edit: Replace fireball with shadow bolt/blade wind. =) Thought demon bane was that stupid bell.

[Baalz]

KissBlade’s suggestions are without exception very good and are to a large extent applicable outside of fighting Caelum as well. They’re a great list of viable strategies to try, but I do think it’s a bit dismissive to assume your clever tricks are met by an opponent with no flexibility. Yes, these are all potentially very effective, but I’d not go so far as to describe Caelum played with a bit of flexibility as “laughable” under any circumstances. Darkness is a great spell that will gain you a great advantage, but from wrathful skies to buffed air elementals to frozen heart to false horrors to stone rain (I particularly like this against Yomi) you haven’t nearly removed all of Caelum’s effective weapons. Mind hunts and manifestations are going to be met with seeking arrows and wind rides, and the chaff you’ve got guarding your SCs gets a couple blasts of shimmering fields (effective enough even in the dark) and/or rain of stones before the demon bane wielding flock descends. The demon bane suggestion was specifically for those tough guys holding rings of tamed lightning, the ones standing around wondering where everybody went when the thunderstrikes die down and properly deployed they should be effective enough as I suggest.

Now, once again, KissBlade’s suggestions are all good and they’ll give Caelum (or anybody) quite an uphill fight, but I wouldn’t be so dismissive of the tactics I suggest in the Caelum guide. A well played Caelum isn’t *that* easy to neuter.

[KissBlade]

Right. I should probably disclaimer the whole thing with it's a HUGE rock paper scissors game. To suggest that Yomi can just field direct counters to Caelum is silliness because it completely nullifies the point of a strategy game. Ironically enough, what it comes down to is how well Caelum deals with your chaff because Caelum is /excellent/ at dealing with single target threats. But at that point, it really comes down to who deploys the tools better, you or your opponent.

Baalz is completely correct in that Caelum played flexibly will still cause you a lot of trouble. (As many competitive nations should, Caelum being one) For example, you are fielded to counter Caelum's seraph spam, however, he swaps it up with you. Suddenly you're up against an army of mass flying archers with wind guided, quickened, and possibly if he has the pretender for it with flaming arrows. Even under darkness, enough projectiles in the air will hit something. (especially if he's not using storm). His front lines are mammoth mixed with pale riders all suitably buffed. Your counters are suddenly going to be a /lot/ different than the ones I've listed above.

And I'll repeat again, if you are out researched, out gemmed and outincomed, you've been outplayed. There is nothing to gain from that. (You could've also been really unlucky but then diplomacy is usually your best method of recovery rather than open battle)

[rdonj]

Well, in the game I'm referring to I started sandwiched on a side between niefelheim and ulm. After a long period of peace that I shouldn't have gone through but did because I am a bit too peaceful for my own good, I attacked ulm. I was halfway or so through killing ulm when caelum, who was in a very open area and had just been playing with a nation that went AI for a while, decided to attack me. I finished off ulm while madly forging items and grabbed for the diplomacy stick. A few turns later, the diplomacy stick broke as another nation decided to attack the one helping me (the only other nation bordering caelum), so now I am pretty much stuck fighting them on my own. I'm pretty much holding my own, but this turn he brought in an air queen with full elemental resistances that I'm not quite sure what to do about. I have a few ideas but one of the biggest problems I'm encountering is simply a lack of mobility. I don't have the air paths to forge boots of flying and the terrain is pretty rough, so the fairly small number of dai oni I have are going to have trouble getting to it to try and bring it down.

I think the game in question would be a fun one to watch if two expert players were given command of mine and my opponent's nations, but I suspect my position is not one terribly likely to survive Anyway I'm getting a bit off topic so I'll try not to go on about my game anymore.

[KissBlade]

Full resistance = no MR. Mind hunt the crap out of her if you or your ally has astral access. Keep in mind, Dai Oni's are actually quite maneuverable on their own. If you give them a magic weapon and shield and less encumbrance, they can stand pretty well against an air queen. (They certainly hit a lot harder) Also try disintegrate if you have it.

[Sombre]

You could always fatigue it out with spells too.

[rdonj]

Hmm, I wasn't thinking about mind hunt. That could work. I don't have it yet but I could get it pretty quickly. Disintegrate was basically what I was thinking, I was just having trouble figuring out how to deliver it Well, that and banefire.

Hmm, I'm aware of astral fatiguing spells but I can't think of any others offhand except for sulphur haze. Probably wouldn't take too many casters to overcome its resilience amulet.

[KissBlade]

astral fatiguing spells? Astral has the /best/ fatiguing spell in the game. Stellar Cascade!! Also make sure you have soul slay before mind hunt or it'll be a whole lot of uselessness.

[thejeff]

I think he was asking for non-astral fatigue spells.
Death has some. Water, though those are usually cold resistant.