OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.

[Kimball]

True, Dogscoff. I just wanted to make a point. I have rather enjoyed hearing how we, the US, are such horrible people.

Oh, well, at least I can call my president an idiot (for backing out of Kyoto amoung other things) without getting thrown in jail, or just disappearing, like in certain communist countries.

[Nitram Draw]

The Kyoto agreement is pretty much of a joke. Assigning allowable pollution levels, how does that work? When have 55 nations ever agreed on anything for more than 25 years. We will reduce pollution when we develop alternative fuels, it's as simple as that and it won't be developed here or in Europe. The oil companies (Royal Dutch Shell, British Petroleum, Elf, Exxon) are too powerful.

HiveLord,
Should we just stand by and let human rights abuse occur because of our past? Do we need to wait until some non-guilty country points it out and then asks for our help?

[capnq]

quote:

---

I think europeans have way more insight in the US than the other way around (thanks to TV and Hollywood).

---

If you honestly believe that TV and Hollywood accurately portray life in the US, your naivete' (sp?) frightens me.

quote:

---

The negative aspects are mostly:

-the US is too centralized
-People starve
-People get executed
-****ed up morality
-The US citizens are religious fanatics
-The US are a threat to the environment (like when they said no to stop producing mines, or when they said no to kyoto/kioto - or however it's spelled)

---

I can't think of a country on Earth that has none of these problems. Many don't execute criminals, and a few don't have strong religious convictions, but every other problem you list is endemic to humanity.

quote:

---

-US foreign aid is not enough (compared to swedish foreign law)

---

A lot of the people who are actually paying the taxes to provide that foreign aid think it's excessive, especially since a lot of it ends up greasing the pockets of corrupt foreign officials rather than actually helping people.

quote:

---

The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

Uh, when did we do this? I know we developed germ warfare, but they were never used. We used chemical agents in Vietnam, but those weren't designed to kill or maim people. They were designed to clear foilage so enemy positions could be discovered.

---

I suspect he's referring to giving Native Americans blankets that had belonged to smallpox victims. Germ warfare was around long before the Industrial Age, though.


------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[parwez]

Hey Kimball,

In defense of the former communist countries.
when in one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Lithinua, Lativia) as opposed to balkland - around Former Yugoslovia)
had only one candidate standing in the elections (no surprises there) and the majority of the electrorate crossed out the name or indicated they wanted to vote against him. The candidate was not elected.

In OUR liberal democracies, (I live in the UK) we cannot vote against a candidate and if a candidate stands unopposed, (s)he get automatically elected.

and you are naive if you think people only disappear outside liberal democracies and our governments are there to serve the public interest whilst those over there only serve the ruling party.

Our governments have better spin-doctors, are more subtle at manipulating facts and we are less critical of them, then people in the countries ('where people disapear').

Our education system is based on the system that came into force during WW2, when the pirority was a loyal, obident workforce.

In the words of Pink Floyd, we don't need no mind control, ...hey teacher leave that kid alone.

It's not the people in the US or UK that are horrible, it's the governments. The people are okay, those who see through the lies are simply labled by the state as trouble makers and are linked with trouble makers.

If a capitalist factory owner was to pollute a river with his waste, it would be unreasonable to treat all factory owners as if this was their intention.

Yet when a single protestor goes beyond the limit, of what is acceptable, all the treated by the states as if they intention was the same. This was the message is lost and action can be delayed. The big companies backing BUSH, know they will loss the battle eventually when it becomes blantly obvious to all the damage they are causing, but they want to delay that date as much as possible, so they can make a quick buck, or position themselves better in the market place for the next round

[Nitram Draw]

Parwez,
Sometimes I wish we could vote for none of the above. Glad you can do it.
I see a lot of critisism of the US government, here and elsewhere, by Europeans. I'd like to remind them that our country has been in existence, is basically its current form, longer than Italy, Belguim, Germany, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia and numerous nations. Keep that in mind when you bash the US for being an incompentant/cruel nation. We taught you a lot, if you were observent.

[parwez]

Re china and olympics, death penalty, communism & democracy

China getting the olympics is a double-edged sword.

firstly they won't people to crack down on the protestors as harshley as the world's media spot-light will be on them and belive me the protestors are going to make the most of this fact.
With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.

Remember China lost the 2000 bid, because of bribery and the fact that countries like Britain after voting made it clear, that their criteria for voting for Australia had nothing to do with merit.

Oh yeah and regarding the death penalty, China asked America (sorry) the US, to stop executing criminals with the mental age of children.

Shame, how can any country justify that position!


(I am not chinese, and belive communism is flawed, I also reject capitalism)*

*I will relate an incident from my school during history class, when we covered communist as an idelogy the teacher after explaining communism asked, people what was good about it/what would make it a success and the kids rolled off a list of points.

Then she asked what was bad about it & why would prevent it from working.

The whole class went quite.
I though about it for a while and started grinning, she asked me what was so amusing, I replied "INTELIGENCE".

She asked me to explain, I said anybody was was smarter in a communist system would find a way to cheat the system.

All it would take is one person who was both smarter and willing to cheat the system and the ideal of every body contributing according to his ability and receiving according to its need could not be achieved.

If many people did this the system would collapse, great in theory, but unworkable once the numbers get large.

The same hold true for democracy, where the ignorant, masses who are easy to manipulate decide the outcome of an election / decession making process.

[parwez]

Actually Nitram,
we can't vote for none-off the above in the UK. It was something that the former communist countries permited. I don't know if that is still the case. I suspect by now they have learnt the rules of the game and wouldn't make the same mistake again.

Not being able to vote against candidates is the biggest problem with democracy.

I have stood as an independent in both council and national elections in the UK. and came very close once.

We have managed to get 5 independent councillors in Birmingham and it has made a real difference. Before the local labours councillors wouldn't spend the money they were allocated, so that the underspend could be sent back to national government, they would reallocate money ear-market for education in deprived areas across the whole city, which rasied their prospects of promotion within their party.

In kidderminister, a single issue 'keep our hospital' was enough for the independents to take control of the council and get an MP in the house of commons.

In many seats, the numbers of voters who can be bothered is very small.

It reminds me of Michale more in the US, when they tried to get a fern (I think) elected into the senate and the fern got more votes than a senator, that was running unopposed.

Whilst the election commission, accepted the application form, it rejected it after the senator lost.

They make the rules and they will change the rules to keep themselves in power. All we can do is win a skirmish here or there and win a right that was our to begin with.

The act of participating, means they have to become more responsive, take the Green movement, they didn't get many MP's but these issues are not being discussed.

[Nitram Draw]

I read a comment that made sense. It said one of the good things about China getting the Olympics was that relations with Tiawan should remain static until after the games, not much chance of them invading before they get their cash! Guess it's a pretty good benefit.

[Phoenix-D]

quote:

---

With many chinese protestors comming into the country as spectotors, you think the handling of the recent anti-capitalist riots were bad, when live ammo was used, China is alot of things but they are not **STUPID**.

---

Where you getting your information from? The Last I heard, they were using the "semi-lethal" rubber bullets. Still went overkill, and with some weird crap going on apparently, but not with live ammo..and them using/not using live ammunition is probably *not* something the admitadly moronic american press would not mention.

(I say rubber bullets are semi-lethal because at close range they CAN do significant damage)

Phoenix-D

[Baron Munchausen]

Ah, well. Draw up a chair & warm yourself by the fire...

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiveLordJim:
I think it very hypocritical of a North American (U.S. in particular) to criticise another country for human rights violations.
Your cities are founded on the sites of villages your �Forefathers� massacred; your soil fertilised with the carcases of millions of Native Americans; your economy was built upon the backs of tens of millions of African slaves.
�The Constitution� which espouses equality among men was constructed by slave owners while they hired immigrants to murder women and children.
The U.S. is the ONLY country in the world EVER to have used a nuclear weapon against another people � its effects still being felt by the civilians they were used on.
The U.S. was one of the first nations of the industrial age (if not the first ever) to use germ warfare against another people (evil Saddam indeed).

---

While these points are true in a general way, they are a bit over-drawn. Many of the Native Americans died from the diseases brought by Europeans. The "Mound Builder" cultures of the Southeast were apparently quite strong and numerous when De Soto first entered what is now Louisiana/Mississipi in the mid-16th century. But when the English settlers moved inland a century or two later they found only scattered bands of 'hunter gatherer' tribes and mysterious mounds with only a few remnants of structures on them. The best guess is that the diseases wiped out 90 percent or more of the populations and destroyed entire civilizations. Later, of course, the settlers got the idea to deliberately introduce diseases like small pox (the blanket trick). This is not new, though! Americans didn't invent the 'plague ship' trick. It dates back to ancient times. Putting some plague infected people on a ship and sending them into your rival's harbor is a well known strategy throughout the ancient world. So, not that there is any lack of massacres but the majority of the native population died of diseases.

The slaves are second only to the Native Americans in victimization, but they weren't QUITE as numerous as you suggest. The grand total of slaves exported from africa is estimated at 40 million, but 3/4 of them died enroute. This trade was begun by the Spanish and carried on by the English, btw. It's not like slavery was invented by the US. Of the surviving 10 million, most were kept in the Carribean area. Only about 1/2 million Africans were actually brought to the US. But the time of the Civil War there were about 4 million slaves in the Southern US while there were about 7 million 'whites' -- the minute the slaves arrived the races started blurring of course.

That said, it is very odd that we have a Holocaust Memorial in the US capital to commemorate atrocities committed by other nations on other continents and nothing to honor the original inhabitants and the slaves who contributed their land and civilization, and their lives, respectively to building the 'greatness' of this nation that the jingoists constantly flog in our faces in the media. Of course it's more of an ego boost to make a fuss over someone ELSE's misdeeds than 'fess up to your own...

quote:

---

The U.S. government has a 225 year history of greed and treachery in regard to foreign policy.
While delaying coming to the aid of a world at war U.S governments and U.S. companies sell weapons to the enemies of their allies.

Your people are so proud of what they have achieved. The reason you are the most hated country in the world is not because of your success, it�s because you are not ashamed of how you achieved that success.

---

Our people? Our government, or our "ruling elite" you mean. Industrialists, bankers, etc. Many of our 'people' are just as exploited as the third world. But yes, like any successful empire the US is quite remorseless in exploiting anyone and anything that it can. The US is still the #1 seller of arms in the world more than a decade after the flimsy excuse of the "Cold War" is gone. Anything to make a buck/get ahead. And then stand on the stump and flog your wealth as proof of how 'great' you are. Yech... it's another classic case of 'funny if it weren't tragic' I think.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 19 July 2001).]