Mod: Arga Dis, Blood and Bronze - NEW VERSION 1.4

[TheMenacer]

Two comments about the new version. The first being that the harpies don't cost anything, which is obviously a bug and all that. When they do cost something I wouldn't make them more than a 1:1 ratio in terms of cost to amount of units recieved, they're a cool unit and that curse ability is nice, but they're too fragile for anything other than focused strikes against an enemy's main army. I'd also consider lowering their path costs to BD rather than BBD because devoting the resources to forging a booster for the occasional BD misborn or a gilgan to summoning 7 fragile harpies seems like a bit of an over-investment. Second, the augurs are pretty much useless as far as I've seen. They are too expensive for a mage who's picks are way too random to be useful. I've actually gotten one with one magic before, and a unit that starts old, comes with an affliction, and costs 33 blood slaves is way, way too much of an investment to even have a chance of coming with one pick on it. If the cost was lowered, or their paths altered to have a better chance of offering something really different from what you get from the misborn I'd consider ever using them, but as it stands they don't really bring anything new to the table.

[Sombre]

The Harpy problem is just a silly error.

I entered #fatiguecost 7 for the spell instead of #fatiguecost 700. Easy to fix for you guys. I'll fix the upload later, bit busy now.

They're ok at killing random archers etc, but the real ability there is the curse. It can't be resisted by MR (so long as they actually hit with the attack). Can be useful against elite units, thugs etc. I might change them a bit though. I'm ok with putting their cost to 1B1D.

As for Augurs, I'm not very confident about their balance, but I don't believe they are useless. Firstly it's 33 blood slaves, not gems, so in terms of gem costs it would be something like 15 or so,.. it isn't like blood isn't going to be something you're doing with Arga Dis either; it's their main magic. It's true that you can get one with only a single point of magic, or even one with no magic, but it's quite rare. The average amount is 3-4. True these are in some pretty random paths and some of them are covered by the Misborn, but you get access to astral and nature, as well as a chance (thoug not a very good one) of getting better fire and death magic than offered by the misborn.

Compare them with "Summon Spectre" for a spectral mage, a spell which is still used by plenty of people. In terms of magical diversity the Augurs are better and they are slightly cheaper in terms of cost. The area where they fall down is that the Spectral Mage is almost thuggy in terms of stats, while the Augurs are physically very weak.

I'd love to hear more input on them before I go reducing their cost. I'll also test them more myself and see if I come to similar conclusions as you TheMenacer.

[Sombre]

UPDATE TO 1.0

Fixed price error for Harpy.
Reduced cost of Augurs.
Some other tweaks (primarily resource cost corrections. Now Arga is more of a sloth nation, befitting their lack of armour.)


I think Arga Dis is largely finished now, joining Ulm Reborn and Vaettiheim in that regard.

[Sombre]

Very quick update to 1.1

I messed up the mr on some units, so now I've sorted that out. I also added a bit of gold cost to the augurs, so you have to pay them upkeep. Not much though.

Go to first page to download. This isn't anything that will break ongoing games using Arga Dis.

[ryo_akashi]

The myrmidon Argan Captain has Move 2/6 as compared to the normal Argan Myrmidon's Move 2/7.

The mounted Sworn Captain cost 140 Gold as compared to the mounted Sworn Companion costing 120. I know that the Sworn Companion cost is inflated to compensate for the fear ability. Also, that Sworn Captain fights with the Gilgan for the capital commander slot. Something does not seem right that the cost difference is 20 gold though... The Sworn Companion's main weakness of low survival rate does not really apply to the Sworn Captain since the captain can use forge items. Also, the Sworn Captains does serve a unique role with map move 3.

[Amhazair]

So, I've been keeping tabs on this mod since I reviewed it for the first time, way back then. (Did I aleady mention that I really dig this nation? ) I'm currently playing them in multiplayer, and I do agree with with your comment Sombre, they do feel like a finished nation. The issues raised in this thread all seem to have been adressed, and Arga Dis now feels and plays like a streamlined, balanced and unique nation.

Ages ago (it might very well be a full year by now - I must be getting old...) I saw a couple of modders (I can't remember if you were one of them, but I think it's not unlikely) discussing the possibility of writing guides on the different mod nations, to help spark interest in them. Since I felt motivated to write down my thoughts on Arga Dis, and would love to share my love for it, I decided to give it ago. I'll post the results of this exercise in the general forums in a minute. Though it's meant as a strategy guide, and not a mod review, I suppose you can get a lot of my opinions there. Keep in mind though that if I discuss balance or strength of units in that thread, I'm doing so from the point of view of developping your strategy, and not as suggesting something should be changed about the mod. (To illustrate my point: In that other thread I mention Gilgans having quite low MR for units of their calibre, in order to conclude that you should make sure that you equip them with enough MR items, before sending them out to face an astral nation. I do however feel that in the context of Arga Dis, and given their price, Gilgans are balanced, and the slightly low MR is just an intresting part of that balance, and thus, if I were to review the Arga Dis nation, I would not make an issue out of that MR. Does that make sense? )

So, having made that point clear (I hope) I have two minor points where I think some balancing adjustments could still be made, if you feel up to it.

I believe the Augurs to be very useful units, as you can also see in my strategy post. I see you added an upkeep cost to them to tweak them a bit. I feel this was a very good idea for this kind of units, who could otherwise start rivaling the misbreds as your general-purpose mages, which is something I suppose you want to avoid. At the revised cost of 25 slaves I do believe them to be slightly underpriced, given their various potential uses, though not by very much. I would price them closer to thirty (perhaps 29 to avoid the nice round number in accordance to general blood ritual pricing. ) With their old age, deformities, general ill health, and (I assume) reluctance to leave their chambers with the cosy scrying fires, I would also think they would be prime candidates to be given mapmove 1. This would, imo, be thematic, another minor drawback to add ontop those they allready have to help out the balancing, and encourage (a little bit at least) their 'historical' use on the homefront as opposed to on the battlefield. Three birds with one stone.

The second issue is a bit more tricky. It's about the sworn companion and the blackwing rider, who both suffer from the same problem. Both these units fill a potentially very powerful niche, so to avoid their over-use you put a high price on their heads(and rightly so)while at the same time keeping them somewhat fragile. However, being a blood nation, you'll generally have somewhat less money available and thus will try to avoid spending lots on money on... let's call it non-core units. And, to put the final nail into their coffin, blood has strong units already filling the niche these two units try to occupy. (demon knights and devils respectively) As things stand now I see no real reason to recruit either of these units. Which is a shame as they're such cool units. I'm not quite sure on how to solve this.

For the sworn companion, I do believe they are slightly overpriced, but even if you lower their price to a level that would make them an intresting buy for most nations, (100g maybe?) they'll still be competing with the demon knights, and demon knights are absolutely awesome. Maybe at a lower price you'd recruit some sworn companions and form a mixed unit if you can't mass the demon knights fast enough? Massing these does take a while, at least before reaching blood 9. I haven't even convinced myself that this is a good solution though, so feel free to disregard me.

On the other hand, I can't justify lowering the cost of the blackwing riders. They are after all a truly elite flying unit. At the same time I can't imagine spending even far lower amounts of money on them as long as they remain as fragile as they are now. I mean, they literally get killed by dagger-wielding archers now. The only solution I can think of (which doesn't mean it's the only one possible of course) is by increasing their armour and thus their survivability. As you state in their description they 'became influenced by foreign cultures' so they did have the opportunity to come into contact with heavier armour. I don't know however if you're willing to abandon the high-defence-low-armour concept of the unit. Unfortunately defence alone just doesn't cut it for size 4 units. The multitude of attacks aimed at your square will lower your defence stat too far too fast.

Those are the last issues I have found with the nation, so all in all big congratulations are in order. This is a fabulous nation, and I humbly bow my head before the master.

[Sombre]

First of all, thanks. This is great feedback and it's genuinely a thrill to hear from people who enjoy using my nations (I'm sad that way).

I'll comment more on your strat guide when it goes up. Perhaps you could include a few images for people unfamiliar with Arga Dis. I know strat guides encourage people to try nations out, so this is all good news to me.

As for the tweaking suggestions,...

Augurs can happily be moved to mapmove 1. You're right that it makes perfect sense. Their cost is low, it's true, and you can get an amazing bargain if you're lucky. On the other hand you can also get a virtually worthless, old, crippled high upkeep [censored]. I may have priced them low because I have rubbish luck.


to be continued when I get home .....

[Sombre]

-deleted double post-

[Amhazair]

Yep, I'm totally aware of the f@#*ng worthless, old, crippled, high upkeep [censored] feeling. I still stand by my point, though it's not such a big deal either.

Posting the guide I suddenly remembered that I forgot to mention that their scout units stealth hasn't been improved yet, as most other scouts have been. I suppose you'll also want to give them the 'normal' scout stealth?

[Sombre]

Yeah I'll bost their stealth. Scouts have 10 now do they? Or 5?

I think I might boost the Augur upkeep even more, though not by much. I like the fact that getting a crummy one is even more painful.

Regarding the blackwing and companions, I do see what you mean. The blackwing are very fragile indeed and tend to get shredded by almost anything they fight, despite good stats. I think it's reasonable for me to improve their armour in some way. They also have the disadvantage of not having a recruitable flying commander, though that isn't particularly hard for Arga to rectify with summons or items. They're a niche unit for sure.

Sworn Companions are a different story. The reason their cost is so high is that they've been price-hiked several times. At their old price I'm pretty sure they were overpowered. The problem is they can do a huge amount of damage in very short order on the charge and more importantly, they have fear. This means if you get enough of them they can simply ride through huge armies, routing them after a turn or two of melee and killing a huge number as they try to run away. Now it's hard to mass Companions, that's for sure, but if you get around 10 of them they really can be nuts.