German ranks

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Glad to see you are back.
Light infantry is a post war "concept" which when applied to WWII obviously causes some confussion. Rapid deployment forces were called paratroopers in WWII.
The Japanese preffered the 70mm howitzer to a mortar as the battalion support weapon because it outranged the opponents mortars. Its very high elevation also meant that it could still produce "plunging" fire 'a la mortar'. All Japanese howitzers are much lighter than their Allied equivalents, concessions to being horse drawn and the general staffs belief that they would very likely be deployed in jungles. Wether or not this 'light' artillery makes Japanese infantry divisions "light" is hair splitting as their OOB was the same as everyone elses "heavy" infantry.

Thus I think McMichael assertion that light infantry emphasizes "mindset and tactics over material" is not relevant to the Japanese as they had a full set of Equipment ie they were "Heavy" infantry.
The link you supplied originally also stresses this point for the Japanese infantry but none of the combat examples given support it. In fact just the opposite for example one commander was very worried to lose his AT guns, he didnt think no problem I'll just use "mindset and tactics".
ie the Japanese did have a mindset and did have tactics but not because they lacked equipment they just thought they were better soldiers than everybody else and its arguable that they were. Again in WWII the French general staff believed that "elan" would win the day, the troops knew better.
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Arrrgh! No! light infantry is a concept dating back to the Pharonic armies and probably before that too. Think of screening your Hastati / Princeps line with Velites or using Pictish archers to attack from rough ground while the enemy goes after your spear line. The "modern" light infantry concept goes back to the Voltigeurs, Rifle Regiments, Minute Men and Jaegers of the Napoleonic period. Agile forces deployed in loose formation capable of independant action.
The "modern-modern" (and American) concept is that of a rapid deployment force - and I would go with gliders over airborne to draw a WWII comparison not Airborne which although light are also elite.

I never suggested that the inclusion of the 70mm makes a unit light - that's an absurd line of reasoning. It is a very different piece of kit even from other IGs -you can break it down and man pack it if you have to and the Japanese did so - who needs horses? And of course it produces the same plunging fire as a mortar - It's-A-Howitzer. What it can do that 99.9% of mortars can't is fire horizontally.

I dunno about McMichael either - I mean he's only an army officer involved in the study of light infantry I doubt he knows sh*t.

As for the Japanese planning to deploy into jungle look at
Behind the myth of the jungle superman: a tactical examination of the Japanese Army�s Centrifugal Offensive, 7 December 1941 to 20 May 1942.

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cgi-bin/show...lename=528.pdf

To quote from the abstract:

While the IJA�s equipment was usually ill suited for battle against the Soviets, Japanese emphasis on light weight unintentionally made the IJA�s standard issue items eminently suitable for jungle operations. Likewise, the IJA�s doctrine was ideal for a short, offensive jungle campaign.

But of course Major Howard - possibly Light Colonel if his promo went through - is also only an officer who reads Japanese and quotes from primary source texts so I doubt he knows sh*t either. It's not like his paper won the Arter-Darby Military History Writing Award - Oh wait it did.

Chuck, I have never seen the need to question your knowledge of WWII German kit and TO&Es and I will never question your tenacity but on this one you have to at least buy a vowel if not a whole clue.

[Marek_Tucan]

Earlier there was a question whether mountain troops are to be considered light infantry - you bet they are

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
10TH MOUNTAIN DIVISION
(LIGHT INFANTRY)

They fulfill every criterion, be it 10th Mountain, Chasseurs Alpins, Alpinis or Gebirgsj�ger... They use lightened rear, many special tools (for example mules instead of horses and trucks in the history), special weapons made to be lightweight and preferably easy to break up for transport (OTO 105mm M56 howitzer, 75mm IG-36...) and they usually hump on their backs more of their kit than regular grunts do.

[wulfir]

PatG said:
As for the Japanese planning to deploy into jungle look at
Behind the myth of the jungle superman: a tactical examination of the Japanese Army�s Centrifugal Offensive, 7 December 1941 to 20 May 1942.

A little tip for those interested:

Eric Bergerud's Touched with Fire have some interesting comparisons between Australian, American and Japanese ground forces during the fighting in the South Pacific.

Book Link

[PatG]

Marek_Tucan said:
Earlier there was a question whether mountain troops are to be considered light infantry - you bet they are

They fulfill every criterion, be it 10th Mountain, Chasseurs Alpins, Alpinis or Gebirgsj�ger... They use lightened rear, many special tools (for example mules instead of horses and trucks in the history), special weapons made to be lightweight and preferably easy to break up for transport (OTO 105mm M56 howitzer, 75mm IG-36...) and they usually hump on their backs more of their kit than regular grunts do.

That makes them equipment light but are they tactically light as well? My guess would be yes as they are chasseurs/jaegers.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Pat
Sorry I should have said -relevant to this discussion- light infantry.
Mortars typically have an elevation of between 45 to 85 degrees, but Howitzers often have a maximum elevation of 45 degrees or so and a few get to 70 degrees or a little less. Point being that in general mortars bombs can have a steeper angle of attack than howitzer shells ie what Ive called 'plunging fire'.
You may be right about McMicheal and CP Howard
McMicheal Generalisations are not supported by his examples, and Howards Referencing is so poor as to be useless.
If either were submitted to me as a PHD thesis which is what they appear to be, I would fail both.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Palle]

Cast a powerful necromancy spell to reply to the question that was directed at me.

First I got to say though that reading through this made me understand why it says "Banned User" at Chuck's name and as a historian by profession I doubt he will ever get to review any Ph.D Thesis.


Anyway, why do I think it cool that the Waffen SS gets its own unit rooster?
-In addition to the replies already made by Pat and Narwan (I think it was). I am also in fact a historian; I do believe that there is no such thing as too much accuracy. I also believe the Luftwaffe rooster, etc are cool. Though I am divided on the issue of a seperate OOB for the Waffen SS; the sheer size of it and the variety of its units would warrant one, and they did get new equipment before and in larger quantities than their Heer colleagues, but on the other hand their equipment was the same as the Heer (if newer and more numerous) and in many battles SS and Heer fought side by side, so they should be able to in scenarios.
-The accuracy point being such an intrinsic part of what I am, I must also admit to a fascination of elite units. I was myself taught to always try to improve and excell, so their mentality is one I understand. And the achievements of the Waffen SS are hard to deny- if only they had not also had that sinister side... but they did, it was part of what made them. I also myself (being sadly too nearsighted for service in the Danish Jægerkorps or the 2e REP as I planned when I was 18), served with the Danish Home Guard SEP (today called SSR), and trained with the LOPKESKS, Jægers, Frømænd and SAS. So I have a soft place for elites. People who has read my other posts elsewhere will also know my liking for The Legion, Marines, Airborne, French Paras, UK Marines and SAS, Gurkhas, Sikhs, etc, etc.

That being said, I am a historian and with one grandfather in the Danish resistance and one serving as slave labourer, you need fear no Nazi sympathies from me. I personally think Neonazis contemptible lowlifes, but also pity their ignorance and frustration.

Sorry for the Necro, but I felt I had to reply. I could not originally as ... there were some pretty bad trouble in my life that almost cost me my life.

A late merry XMas here as well.