[PBEM game] Entwined Destiny (Over)

[PashaDawg]

I yield to the fine gentleman from Bavaria.

[Alneyan]

The three other nations taken this time are Caelum, Mictlan and Vanheim. The three previous ones were C'tis, Pangaea and Pythium.

I will be sending the third row of mails, where the last three times will pick their second nation.

Note that Tuidjy's proposal does not require one team to have the vast majority of *all* the provinces: it merely requires one team to have a fair share (almost everything) of the mainland. I was thinking it would make standing off a much less appealing strategy, since leaving one team free to steamroll the central provinces would mean defeat faster than you could say "I wish VISA".

In this case, controlling the provinces would trigger victory not because of the power they give, but simply to make "aggressive defence" needed. You could even be meaner, and make it so the first team to control the six "gates" (provinces on the mainland leading to the isles) win the game, or something of the like.

[Yvelina]

I think that if we use 'Theater of War' without some kind of victory condition, we are setting ourselves up for the ultimate turtlefest. With two very effective choke points per isle, and no diplomacy, a team can afford to stay on their isle and go crazy with hoarding items.

Not that I necessarily object to this, as I have found that an aggressive start and a mid-game onset of hoarding beats turtling... and the one race we have secured has no problem hoarding, thank you very much. But I would like to make sure that all players know what they are getting into.

As for me, I am happy with ToW + victory condition, Inland + total anihilation, or even ToW + TA - I am just warning people that the last option will promote turtling. I think that Inland will be the most exciting game, especially if our gracious host picks balanced starting positions.

By the way, Panther, what do you mean 'very few games are fought to the bitter end'? My last four games have been fought to the end, and the two I'm in right now also look as if they will produce a clear winner. It is true that none of them has ended with someone killing off the last enemy, but when all players gang up on one and five turns later admit defeat, I call that a game taken to the end.

[TheBirthdayParty]

Ok. Reitterating, sorry about the delay in responding. I thought I had posted my e-mail and such, thus would be e-mailed information. Anyhoo, I'm here.

Where can I d/l the theatre of war map and i don't think starting provinces has been mentioned. 1 each? Depending on the map, 3 each might be good?

[The Panther]

Yvelina said:
I think that if we use 'Theater of War' without some kind of victory condition, we are setting ourselves up for the ultimate turtlefest. With two very effective choke points per isle, and no diplomacy, a team can afford to stay on their isle and go crazy with hoarding items.

Not that I necessarily object to this, as I have found that an aggressive start and a mid-game onset of hoarding beats turtling... and the one race we have secured has no problem hoarding, thank you very much. But I would like to make sure that all players know what they are getting into.

As for me, I am happy with ToW + victory condition, Inland + total anihilation, or even ToW + TA - I am just warning people that the last option will promote turtling. I think that Inland will be the most exciting game, especially if our gracious host picks balanced starting positions.

By the way, Panther, what do you mean 'very few games are fought to the bitter end'? My last four games have been fought to the end, and the two I'm in right now also look as if they will produce a clear winner. It is true that none of them has ended with someone killing off the last enemy, but when all players gang up on one and five turns later admit defeat, I call that a game taken to the end.

Actually, I could not agree with you more, Yvelina, you are correct in what you say, imho. One of the problems with Dominions is that turtling pays off because of the much too cheap clams.

I suppose what I meant about no games going to the bitter end is that exactly ZERO of my games I have played in WITHOUT VICTORY CONDITIONS went to the bitter end. I am including my game with you in that, for that game definitely did not go to the end. You are your boyfriend essentially won an allied victory in that one. That seems common in that the two top nations kill everyone else and declare a joint victory. This has happened twice now in my games, and it does prevent the intense micro required in the late game from becoming a bore.

In fact, had you and your boyfriend fought each other in that game, it would have taken a long time for one side to win since you both seemed closely balanced at the end. I can fully understand your reluctance to invest the time required to do exactly that. I would have done the very same thing you did in your shoes.

I also must agree with you that if all other players declare one nation the unbeatable winner, then that does count as the bitter end. Given that definition, then my first ever MP game did go to the end with Arch being declared the obvious winner after eventually fighing off everybody else. But none of the 10 games I played since then have gome this way. I am even on turn 125 in one of my games. But I think that is close to a stalemate in that the Pythium player might take another 70 turns to eliminate me because of mass ghost riders and a castle in every province. And because I can't see investing all the time required to play that game to that point, the remaining few players will probably declare Pythium the winner.

I do warn you that the Aku and Boron team will turtle and clam hoard like crazy in this game. With clams at a mere W2 requirement, it is gonna happen and happen and happen again. And then happen some more, for clams are the best thing you can mass produce for sure.

My son did point out that a W3S1 requirement to build a clam makes a lot more sense than a W4 requirement. We talked about it and I think he has it right. it helps the weaker nations like TC and Atrlantis, for those two races can still easily clam hoard but the stronger nations cannot get the mages so easily. Let us hope they do something like this in Dom 3.

I did assume that Petar got Pythium but you missed on Vanheim and will have to take whatever is left over at the end (Ulm perhaps?) Or did you get Vanheim and Petar must take a nation he likes less?

I sure would like for everybody to post frequently once the fighting starts and tell what is going on in this game, for I do really like the format here. I think it is one of Alneyan's best ideas yet, along with his King of the Hill game.

I like it so much that I was even thinking of buying a second copy of dominions just so my son and I could be a team were another game like this occur.

[Aku]

Lets leave the ToW map with TA. Either everyone fights to the bitter end or people will forfeit and declare a winner. I feel the games that are the most fun have no victory conditions.

With victory conditions a pure rush strat can win the game. With TA then you need a strat with a balance between rush and hoard. I personally feel that if you sit and hoard 100% that you are too vulnerable to be taken out in a single turn. In another game Boron sat and hoarded the entire time and Thufir in a single battle destroyed Boron because he lost all his hoard item carriers and all his defenders etc. I do not believe it is unbalanced because a straight hording 100% strat does leave you vulnerable if a neighbor rushes you. Boron is always lucky and seems to never be in a war with anyone so he is allowed to hoard. That is not the fault of hoarding but the fault of his neighbors being nice to him lol. I would like to see no victory conditions because I am extremely curious how everyone will play the game out in the theatre of war map.

[Boron]

I can't hear the *****ing about lategame and hoarding anymore .

Flames from afar target HIDDEN scouts also . So hoarding is not secure or anything only if you are underwater .

But theater of war has not a single water province so stop the whining .

[Yvelina]

Boron, it is not a matter of being afraid of the late game. People who have played me know that I can hoard with the best of them, and as I said, we secured one of the good hoarder races... and we are shooting for a second hoarder.

All I am trying to do is to make sure everyone realizes that without victory conditions we will play a hoarder's wet dream. Why?

1. Starting positions are utterly defensible.
2. The second teammember can defend the hoarder.
3. Magic paths can be combined for better hoarding.
4. Without diplomacy, teams will delay attacks.
5. An attack on someone's isle will entail extremely vulnerable supply lines.
6. The map is huge.

If everyone realizes that without victory conditions this game will be won only through hoarding, and agrees, that is fine. If the other teams would hate such a game, there is no point in starting a game that most people will abbandon.

So, I suggest everyone who is in the game votes on map, victory conditions, diplomacy, and presence/absence of castles in the chokepoints, with the host breaking the ties.

One thing is for sure - we will all be listening about a voice from the sky that tells us that the nation of Foobaria is engaging in magical manufacturing.

[alexti]

Yvelina said:
So, I suggest everyone who is in the game votes on map, victory conditions, diplomacy, and presence/absence of castles in the chokepoints, with the host breaking the ties.

I think that's a good idea.

Also, why don't we play on Ringworld map? It looks very interesting. Everybody will have exactly one ally neighbour and one enemy neighbour... Very symmetric...

[PashaDawg]

True. Ringworld could be fun. While I like the Theater of War map, I am still worried about the logistics of teams on that map.