Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Bossemanden]

My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it.

I believe that what Pepe is trying to say is there are counters (which there are for every combination and variety of nations and themes) to this particular Wyrm strategy.

Which is of course true. If not, everyone would use Wyrms constantly and there would be no other choice.

The primary reasoning for this is it's lack of slots (body slot in particular for Elemental Hauberk), the vulnerability of Astral Magic in general (especially on Pretenders) and the heavy handedness that most newer people use their SC's.

On the other hand Pepe, Arryn is only defending what she feels and knows is right at the current, perhaps in a fashion that is argumentative, but that is just the way some people are. You should know from your Dom1 days that the learning curve from newbie to experienced is quite a turn, especially for those going from SP to MP. So maybe you could cut her a little slack, not everyone will take what people say for fact until it's been used against them.

Also, Arryn you need to not specifically bow down to the more experienced members (which Pepe is), but take their advice with a grain of salt and not try to find flaw in the argument, but the key questions as to what and why they arn't constants (which in this game they are not, no amount of planning and preperation will give you a consistant response to every game, there are just too many variables).

Just agree to disagree, try to leave any personal comments at the door (cough, cough).

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it.

My thanks to you, Pillin, and the others that seem to be deriving some use from my effort. I have no intention of stopping the AAR, so you need not worry.

The discussion you tactfully refer to went negative many Posts ago, and I apologize for my part in it. 'Nuff said. I'll start keying in Turn #10 ...

[Arryn]

Zen, can you please explain to me why anyone would play a pretender with Astral if it's so easy to whack them with communion-boosted mages? I presume there's a counter to the communion-covens?

Because Astral is a powerful school of magic. It has access to quite a few of the best spells in the game. Also the nature of the game permits you to not always place your Pretender in immediate danger (I.E. combat) so when you are faced with a situation where you are facing Pythium/R'leyh/Arco and to a lesser extent, the Astral 2 Mage nations that are gunning for your Pretender he can be regulated to a different duty.

The power of the Wyrm has always been early initial expansion, Astral helps that particular cause quite a bit, lengthening his already initial investment by a factor of 5~10 turns. In that timeframe you need to make him count for what he is doing. After that point if you are in conflict with one of the aforementioned nations, you have to switch the use of your Pretender, more than likely summoning/forging/gatewaying. Choosing a different path (Say Air or Earth) you would not be limited by that particular aspect, but still limited as you would in any game because as the game progresses, SC Pretenders become less of a factor as other nations can manufacture their own SC's that can potentially kill your Pretender without losing as much in the process.

These are of course advanced multiplayer strategies that you are the most vulnerable to. If you are trying to learn about the viability of using SC's by easiest example (like your Pretender) and the spell paths/uses of spells (as someone mentioned earlier) this is a valuable learning experience. Which is exactly why you started this AAR, correct?

You didn't start it to run up and into MP situations as supreme grognard, but with the knowledge of how an aspect of the game is used. But as a tool of learning and showing people your own mistakes/insights/observations/innovations.

Take it in that light and I'm sure you'll feel much better. What some of the more experienced players may not remember, or care about, is that a whole deluge of newbies are out there. Trying to learn. This is a tool for those as well as the players themselves. While people can sit here and spout advise all day, it's not going to aid you in playing the game until you figure out the entire aspects for yourself and reasonings. It would be pure folly to try to do so and you would lose alot of the magic that this game so eloquently provides.

Edit: One of the best counters to Communion/Teleporting/Covens is Fires from Afar and to a lesser extent Seeking Arrows, etc. Foul Vapors, Wrathful Skies, Lammashatas, Fliers all do very well at killing mid-large numbers of commanders.

Edit: I also suggested Earth and Air previously Arryn But you have your own personal standards, didn't want Earth because you wern't familiar with it and Air, for whatever reason . Astral is just the next down the line of simplicity to use.

[ February 10, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Karacan]

Not everyone sends their pretender to the front, and there's usually more than just one front - if you know an astral active enemy approaches, just send your astral weak SC to another front.

Also, the communion strategy is *very* susceptible to assassinations. Communicants are slain by a simple unequipped assassin quite easily. Seeking Arrows kill them off with one shot, and lots of other bad things can happen to them. Two communicants dead before the battle usually mess up scripting very nicely.

Oh, and please continue in your style.

[Wendigo]

Once a number of game mechanics have been present in multiple games of yours you take that stuff for granted, and are surprised when what you consider common knowledge is dismissed as wrong, even fustrated when after detailed argumentation you fail to transmit what -to you- is obvious.

Sorry if I was too agressive. The 'Peharps you need more experience' sentence was indeed a low blow.

You can never be too aggressive when trying to help. You just can't be offended because they won't pound it into their head that *you're* right, eh?

Spainards!

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
I also suggested Earth and Air previously Arryn But you have your own personal standards, didn't want Earth because you wern't familiar with it and Air, for whatever reason . Astral is just the next down the line of simplicity to use.

Zen, thanks for all the insights, and for the encouragement.

I'd like to clarify one small thing though, hence the quote above. The conversation we had went something like "What are you familar with?" I said I was familiar with R'lyeh and Jotun, and the Ashikaga mod. Since I had just played a dual-bless Jotun pretender in MP blitz (and done badly), you opted to stay with Jotun and I agreed, so you selected the Wyrm, which was one of the two Jotun pretenders I've used before. I said I'd used Astral, Nature, Death, and Water magics with pretenders. I neglected to mention that I am also familiar with Air and Fire, but not on pretenders. You mentioned that Earth was good and all I said was that I was unfamiliar with it. I did not say I didn't want it. What I did say was that I was uninterested in *Blood*. Air was not mentioned at all. Considering we were doing this at roughly 3-4AM Central time, after many hours of being awake, I am hardly surprised we overlooked it. After mentioning Earth, you proposed Astral. And we proceeded from there.

My purpose in relating this is so the readers will understand *what* led to the choices that were made, on my part, and *how* it was done. Zen has already given the reasons *why* he suggested what he did. So that's the what, how, and why of it.

[ February 10, 2004, 21:57: Message edited by: Arryn ]

I may have! I am the perpetrator of the Astral Wyrm. I am the newb, cruxify me for my choices!

If I'd known that you were going to write an AAR that would stir this much contraversy I'd have made you pick Arco with a Natarajah. They are much easier to teach *everything* about without having any instant weaknesses