A pirates life for me...

[Suicide Junkie]

Here's some content for you then
P&N v3.1 PBW!

I'll write up a decent description for the changes in the next week or so.
If you really want to know, check out the Horrible Doom thread... I've got a checklist of suggestions and things I wanted to do in there.

[Ed Kolis]

Weehee!

{joins "Horrible Doom"}

Comments...

How come the "Nutty" mounts don't require the Gun Nuts racial trait?

You do know that you don't have to make duplicate copies of every quality mount and small mount just for different unit types, don't you? Just list them separated by slashes or commas! (Heck, spaces would probably even work - it's one of the few places SE4 isn't anal about its data files!)

The "Buckytube Weave I-III" mounts have the same abbreviation... how about Bt1/Bt2/Bt3? Also, why does only the third one have shields generated at 100%? (The rest are at 0%!) Do the earlier ones negate the ability of shield generators, or is that mount not applicable to shield generators

Machine Shop I is still missing its roman numeral...

Training Facilities require Training Methods level ZERO??? ... whoa, a million organics, those things must take CENTURIES to build, even longer than a facility! How about making them cheaper but giving them a negative maintenance reduction so they cost more in upkeep? Oh, and might I suggest making each level a separate component family so you don't have to turn off Only Latest to put on a lesser one, and so you don't automatically upgrade to the fanciest Version when you upgrade your design? I can think of many situations where you would not want to put the best one on a base - it might just be too expensive! 60 familiies might be a bit much, but I think it would be well worth it... Of course I could be wrong - if you don't want it don't research it - but it might be nice to have the tech available if necessary, and you might have several grades of training bases, some for the front and some for the homeworlds... Oh, and the Training Facility 3x should say "triple the normal rate" not "double", and what is the point of increasing 3% per turn up to 1%??? ... and the 3x are no more expensive than the 2x? I'd thought they'd be 100K min/rad!

I like how fancier standard-class master computers prevent fewer & fewer psychic scans - if they're so smart, why CAN'T the psychics detect them!

I don't think automated bridges should have the Boarding Defense attribute - WHAT command staff???

I don't think you need to give Crew Quarters the Boarding defense attribute either - don't they get that automatically?

Spirit crew quarters are only 5 kT? What, are they monks who live in spartan conditions?

Scavengers are better at combat than swashbucklers? Gee, somehow that doesn't seem right...

It would be nice to know exactly how much boarding defense your security stations provide, rather than "elite personnel" or somesuch...

Hunter killer drones take up ONE kiloton??? And they're almost as effective as boarding parties???

Solar Reactor I and that zero tech level requirement again...

Nomads who start with Solar Sails... Sounds about right! Kind of like "Treasure Planet" huh?

Solar Sail II has 60 kT structure while the others only have 6! (And why don't they have the Armor attribute? They are a very vulnerable part of the ship!)

Why do the large engines have "Generates 0 bonus movement" as their first ability? Would kind of distract the eye from the other abilities - QNP HAS no bonus movement anyway!

Ah, research weapon overloading weapons to get temporal cloaks! Interesting... or was that supposed to be a surprise? (I see they start on level 2 so you wouldn't notice unless you started down that path or looked at the data files... oh well by the time the game starts I'll forget probably! )

Uh, what is the point of multiple levels of buckytube gel plating if they don't get a better damage resistance/cost ratio?

Organic armor's solar supply generation should say "per month for each star in the system"

All right, did you actually take the idea of "make the Talisman huge but decrease its size with tech advancements" from me or did you think of it independently?

Why are active scanners so expensive, both in research and radioactives cost?

The Long Range Scanner I is still fairly useless... so is the Graviton Hellbore (why not give it a + to hit, if it creates a big gravity well...) Yeah, I know, I expect P&N to fix everything that's wrong with SE4

The DUC I for fighters/troops is missing...

Did you hear that a weapon can't have zeroes for its damage at close range and then have actual damage farther out or else it won't fire - the game hits a zero and thinks it's run out of range! How about changing the Graviton Flux Cannon to do 1 damage at close range...

PD cannons/lasers still don't have an ability highlighting their accuracy bonus...

Whoa, CSM's are cheap! Maybe they will be useful now - sure, my destroyer won't Last long against yours, but when I can build four times as many of them as you can... MUWUHAHAHA Of course with all those supplies you'll need this will REALLY give a rustic space-pioneer feel - yar, I've got this ship here, she's got four o'them missile bays, but boy howdy do we need to keep her fueled up or we can't fahr anything!

ION PULSE CANNONS! Woohoo! OK, it's nothing big, but I like how you borrowed from MOO2 - sure, you can't cause a warp core breach (those were fun ) but MOO2 just plain rocks

But it's still called "Planetary Napalm"? I know it's not literally napalm, but wouldn't "Thermonuclear Bomb" be a bit more accurate? Dropping napalm on a planet just doesn't quite cut it for sci-fi...

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )

Ooh... massive shield depleter has massive Accuracy bonus... looks like fun

Those ultra-recycler nodes... If you bump up your Maintenance Reduction, will you get a NEGATIVE maintenance cost???

I think you can remove the mount placeholders from Components.txt soon - I hear the latest beta patch reports the mounts as researched properly... what IS that Last generic "Mount Reports" for anyway?

Yay, robotoid factories are less effective so it's worthwhile to build mineral scanners and such! (Funny, I got that idea too... don't recall telling anybody )

Ooh, custom spaceyards! So you can build some that specialize in minerals, orgs, and rads! I likey! But why do they all cost the same?

System grav shields no longer stop ordinary star destroyers, just black hole/nebula creators?

"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?

yoink, spaceyards are expensive! so much for my strategy of building one on every planet!

Darn... you know, now that I've gone through everything, I wish I'd just waited till the game started so it would be new longer... oh well, I forgot most of this stuff already!

Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game interminably long without being destroyed?

The reported masses of Battlestations and Spacestations are off...

So far... way past cool! still I wish I'd waited

edit: stupid smiley count limit have to go back and edit out all the smileys <-- look it's a smiley

Warning: PhD thesis precedes. Oh wait too late

[Fyron]

Ed, you're not the only one that can think of stuff.

[Fyron]

Why are there 2 Versions of Mental Shredders, that do different types of damage, have the same names, same tech reqs, and same family numbers? Shouldn't they have different families and names?

Solar Sail 2 has 60 structure instead of 6.

[ January 23, 2003, 05:22: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

How come the "Nutty" mounts don't require the Gun Nuts racial trait?
Fixed!

You do know that you don't have to make duplicate copies of every quality mount and small mount just for different unit types, don't you? Just list them separated by slashes or commas! (Heck, spaces would probably even work - it's one of the few places SE4 isn't anal about its data files!)
Actually, I did not know that. Having them already there, I shall leave them for now, but I shall certainly try it in the future!

The "Buckytube Weave I-III" mounts have the same abbreviation... how about Bt1/Bt2/Bt3? Also, why does only the third one have shields generated at 100%? (The rest are at 0%!) Do the earlier ones negate the ability of shield generators, or is that mount not applicable to shield generators
Fixed!

Machine Shop I is still missing its roman numeral...
Fixed!

Training Facilities require Training Methods level ZERO??? ... whoa, a million organics, those things must take CENTURIES to build, even longer than a facility! How about making them cheaper but giving them a negative maintenance reduction so they cost more in upkeep? Oh, and might I suggest making each level a separate component family so you don't have to turn off Only Latest to put on a lesser one, and so you don't automatically upgrade to the fanciest Version when you upgrade your design? I can think of many situations where you would not want to put the best one on a base - it might just be too expensive! 60 familiies might be a bit much, but I think it would be well worth it... Of course I could be wrong - if you don't want it don't research it - but it might be nice to have the tech available if necessary, and you might have several grades of training bases, some for the front and some for the homeworlds... Oh, and the Training Facility 3x should say "triple the normal rate" not "double", and what is the point of increasing 3% per turn up to 1%??? ... and the 3x are no more expensive than the 2x? I'd thought they'd be 100K min/rad!
1) Yes, training methods is more of an "Improved Training methods" type tech.
2) Use retroseries, and you will be able to retro up at least one level per turn.
3) I placed them at the beginning, so you can turn off "only latest" and scroll through them easily, or turn on "only latest" and compact 'em down to one space.
4) Double->triple Fixed!
5) Since training facilities on the same object stack in a funny way, you could combine a 3%/1% with a 1%/20% to get 3%/20% (rate/max)
6) Just for you, I'll up the price

I like how fancier standard-class master computers prevent fewer & fewer psychic scans - if they're so smart, why CAN'T the psychics detect them!
Yep! I was having a conflict between better CPU vs Better cloak, and the "only latest" effect, so I split it into two areas!

I don't think automated bridges should have the Boarding Defense attribute - WHAT command staff???
It is expanded automation, not complete
That means the command staff are the entire crew for ships smaller than Cruisers.

I don't think you need to give Crew Quarters the Boarding defense attribute either - don't they get that automatically?
That is for extra defense ability beyond the default, AND to add 2x defense to Psychic crews, AND also to make them vulnerable to mental shredders.

Spirit crew quarters are only 5 kT? What, are they monks who live in spartan conditions?
They are ghosts and spirits of the dead heroes! They spend most of their leisure time elsewhere

Scavengers are better at combat than swashbucklers? Gee, somehow that doesn't seem right...
Well, the scavengers are more professional... I probably need to readjust the numbers, though.

It would be nice to know exactly how much boarding defense your security stations provide, rather than "elite personnel" or somesuch...
Ok, I can add some relative skill Ratings to the description.

Hunter killer drones take up ONE kiloton??? And they're almost as effective as boarding parties???
20kt of them do cost 4000 rads, but you are right that they are surprisingly effective, given their special abilities as well.
Research wise, they do require computers level 6.

Solar Reactor I and that zero tech level requirement again...
You need to be able to gather supplies from day 1, or your scouts would have to be scrapped and rebuilt
That is intended.

Nomads who start with Solar Sails... Sounds about right! Kind of like "Treasure Planet" huh?
Yep! They start with +2 levels in fighter tech too.

Solar Sail II has 60 kT structure while the others only have 6! (And why don't they have the Armor attribute? They are a very vulnerable part of the ship!)
Well, I considered that, but sails would be huge, and firing torpedoes and antiproton beams at them would leave tiny rips and holes only. You would need to hit the anchor point(s) to do any real damage, which seems best modeled as an internal, just like weapon ports.

Why do the large engines have "Generates 0 bonus movement" as their first ability? Would kind of distract the eye from the other abilities - QNP HAS no bonus movement anyway!
Hrm. The first and Last ones were correct, so I never noticed! Thanks!

Ah, research weapon overloading weapons to get temporal cloaks! Interesting... or was that supposed to be a surprise? (I see they start on level 2 so you wouldn't notice unless you started down that path or looked at the data files... oh well by the time the game starts I'll forget probably! )
Its the whole tachyon thing. Perhaps I should rename things to make it clearer.

Uh, what is the point of multiple levels of buckytube gel plating if they don't get a better damage resistance/cost ratio?
I believe they have a better chance of absorbing hits as they get larger.
Considering the tech difference, you are right that a better cost effectiveness is in order.

Organic armor's solar supply generation should say "per month for each star in the system"
And the crossover tech variants too... Fixed!

All right, did you actually take the idea of "make the Talisman huge but decrease its size with tech advancements" from me or did you think of it independently?
I don't believe so. Plus, that is not the entire thing to it. You are not intended to use the talisman components so much, since there are talisman mounts available as well.
With the mount, you trade off the bonus damage of large mounts for the 100% accuracy.

Why are active scanners so expensive, both in research and radioactives cost?
Partly because they are blocked by scattering armor, which is a hefty component, and partly to reduce the number of scanning ships floating around.

The Long Range Scanner I is still fairly useless... so is the Graviton Hellbore (why not give it a + to hit, if it creates a big gravity well...) Yeah, I know, I expect P&N to fix everything that's wrong with SE4
Well, easy to fix the scanners. +1 range for everybody!
As for the hellbore, it already carries Armor Skipping damage.
Useful for scaring the enemy into using the lower hp/kt shields, rather than piles of 20 hitpoint A+ PPA.

The DUC I for fighters/troops is missing...
Yes, because the range on such a weapon would be zero as soon as you place it on a small mount.

Did you hear that a weapon can't have zeroes for its damage at close range and then have actual damage farther out or else it won't fire - the game hits a zero and thinks it's run out of range! How about changing the Graviton Flux Cannon to do 1 damage at close range...
Nope! And I have thrashed many a Battleship, and even battlemoon with instant death from extreme range, so I know it works!

PD cannons/lasers still don't have an ability highlighting their accuracy bonus...
Fixed!

Whoa, CSM's are cheap! Maybe they will be useful now - sure, my destroyer won't Last long against yours, but when I can build four times as many of them as you can... MUWUHAHAHA Of course with all those supplies you'll need this will REALLY give a rustic space-pioneer feel - yar, I've got this ship here, she's got four o'them missile bays, but boy howdy do we need to keep her fueled up or we can't fahr anything!
Yep! Probably best to keep them at home, sitting over a supply depot
Your attack fleets will likely be very different from your defense fleets!

ION PULSE CANNONS! Woohoo! OK, it's nothing big, but I like how you borrowed from MOO2 - sure, you can't cause a warp core breach (those were fun ) but MOO2 just plain rocks
Uhm, no, those are classic SE4 weapons... I may have tweaked the name to sound more realistic, but it is basically the same thing as unmodded.

But it's still called "Planetary Napalm"? I know it's not literally napalm, but wouldn't "Thermonuclear Bomb" be a bit more accurate? Dropping napalm on a planet just doesn't quite cut it for sci-fi...
It sounded OK to me as it was... I imagine some sort of plasma clusterbomb effect.

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )
No comment

Ooh... massive shield depleter has massive Accuracy bonus... looks like fun
Yes, as they are so very massive, and being low-efficiency one-shot weapons, I felt they needed that advantage.

Those ultra-recycler nodes... If you bump up your Maintenance Reduction, will you get a NEGATIVE maintenance cost???
No. The components are carefully balanced such that you end up with exactly 1% maintenance.
DOH! Bases will be messed up now Must rebalance the details.

I think you can remove the mount placeholders from Components.txt soon - I hear the latest beta patch reports the mounts as researched properly... what IS that Last generic "Mount Reports" for anyway?
It would be there to keep the "only latest" mount report unchanged as mounts are researched.
Less reason to poke around in otherwise useless components.

Yay, robotoid factories are less effective so it's worthwhile to build mineral scanners and such! (Funny, I got that idea too... don't recall telling anybody )
That idea was all over the forum a while ago. Everybody wanted something to that effect.

Ooh, custom spaceyards! So you can build some that specialize in minerals, orgs, and rads! I likey! But why do they all cost the same?
Planning and building the facility costs the same. It is just an assembly building after all. Workers, cranes, conveyor belts, etc.

System grav shields no longer stop ordinary star destroyers, just black hole/nebula creators?

"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?
Nope! Added. This is similar in nature to the Proportions homeworld super city things, except much less so.

yoink, spaceyards are expensive! so much for my strategy of building one on every planet!
You still can if you have the time. You can also build up expansion projects to make the ones you do have run faster!

Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game interminably long without being destroyed?
Yes. The civilian transport is big enough to carry a spaceyard, too, so the Pirates can rebuild even after being beaten badly.

The reported masses of Battlestations and Spacestations are off...
Fixed!

Why are there 2 Versions of Mental Shredders, that do different types of damage, have the same names, same tech reqs, and same family numbers? Shouldn't they have different families and names?
Where?
I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
I don't see the problem you are referring to.

[Fyron]

Why are there 2 Versions of Mental Shredders, that do different types of damage, have the same names, same tech reqs, and same family numbers? Shouldn't they have different families and names?
Where?
I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
I don't see the problem you are referring to.

Didn't notice the vehicle requirements of them. Oops!

[Krsqk]

Ooh, with kamikaze warheads' damage pumped up, they might actually be useful! (Who needs drones... when you have hordes of suicidal fighter pilots! ... uh oh your name is Suicide Junkie, better watch out )
No comment

Nah, he's more into the Timex style of ship design--takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. See his P&N page for an example dreadnought design which took on 9 enemy dreads and won (albeit with months and months' worth of damage). Of course, any good player will change tactics from time to time, so there's really no telling what to expect.

[Ed Kolis]

(sorry about the arrows in funny places, I edited this message in notepad so the margins are probably wrong )

>Well, easy to fix the scanners. +1 range for everybody!
I thought of that as a possibility, but noted that if LRS III got 6 range then you could park a ship with one in the middle of the system and scan the entire system, and thought you might not want that to happen, so I didn't mention it

>Your attack fleets will likely be very different from your defense fleets!
This will make for a very fun strategic game... Sure you're attacking me with APB's, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be defending your planets with them!

>Uhm, no, those are classic SE4 weapons... I may have tweaked the name to >sound more realistic, but it is basically the same thing as unmodded.
Yeah, I know it does the same thing, I just like the new name

>It would be there to keep the "only latest" mount report unchanged as mounts >are researched.
Have no idea what you're talking about what only latest mount report?

>>"Legacy Infrastructure"? something removed in a previous Version?
>Nope! Added. This is similar in nature to the Proportions homeworld super >city things, except much less so.
That might mean you'll have to twiddle with some of the intel ops and (if you gave them the Resusmart bombs - don't want Industrial Sabotage or Puppet Political Parties to take one of those out! (PvK are you listening?)

>>Couldn't those invisible civilian ships really keep pirates in the game >>interminably long without being destroyed?
>Yes. The civilian transport is big enough to carry a spaceyard, too, so the >Pirates can rebuild even after being beaten badly.
Doesn't sound quite fair - I know Pirates are at a disadvantage, but giving them basically a permanently cloaked ship that can build other ships is essentially making it impossible for them to lose!

>I have two copies of the Mental Shredder, one for weapon platforms and one for ships/bases...
>I don't see the problem you are referring to.
Oh, must not have seen the can be mounted on field... always easy to miss one

[Suicide Junkie]

Have no idea what you're talking about what only latest mount report?

When viewing components using the "latest only"
That one spot will not change, eliminating an unnessesary distraction to shipbuilders

That might mean you'll have to twiddle with some of the intel ops and (if you gave them the Resusmart bombs - don't want Industrial Sabotage or Puppet Political Parties to take one of those out! (PvK are you listening?)

No, nothing so big.
These facilities are just barely better than the default facilities, and turn out to be relatively unimportant in the long run.

Doesn't sound quite fair - I know Pirates are at a disadvantage, but giving them basically a permanently cloaked ship that can build other ships is essentially making it impossible for them to lose!

Hey, since its almost impossible for them to win, that seems only fair

I thought of that as a possibility, but noted that if LRS III got 6 range then you could park a ship with one in the middle of the system and scan the entire system, and thought you might not want that to happen, so I didn't mention it

I don't see the problem there. Now you can scan the entire system from one square off center!

[ January 24, 2003, 21:34: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[dumbluck]

So... where can I get the current PBW Version? I really ought to look at the mod a bit if'n we're going to start Horrible Doom up sometime soon...