MP: ANDalusian Sun: Lolomo wins after more than 2 years of gruelling competition!

[Calahan]

I think some sort of executive decision (as democracy sucks) needs to be made regarding just how ""experimental" this game is going to be in regards to mod testing, and decide whether or not a (R)AND game is the best setting for mod testing.

Since not only are (R)AND games meant to be a more 'serious' type of game than regular games, there is also the simple mod-testing problem of it being a lot more difficult to provide feedback on the mods being tested, as you will often have to wait until the end of the game to do so. Since you can't just post in the relevant mod thread saying "I just had a fight and encountered a bug with XYZ", since a sharp eyed player can easily join the dots to the error report and the in-game battle to work out which nation a player is. (and I've seen countless anonymous ID's given away with careless posts in other threads). You could PM the bug to the mod creator of course to safeguard your ID, but players often get both lazy and forgetful, leading again to the careless thread post problem.


As someone who has done a lot of laborious testing with the casting AI, I really would add a note of caution to using any mod that adds spells to the game. Since while the modding code to add new spells isn't that hard if you know the system, and indeed it might look snazzy to add a few minor spells thinking "that won't do any harm", the actual effects it has on the casting AI in-game need to be thoroughly tested IMO before seeing use in proper/serious (call them what you will) games.

Since I'm sure any Machaka player will testify to how annoying just one spell can be in ruining a perfectly good mage. As they line up their item/spell boosted F5E5D1 Black Sorcerers on the battlefield expecting them to decimate armies with a range of Evo's for minimum fatigue, only to see the casting AI regularly decide that no, I don't want to kill the enemy, as I think the best thing is to utilise the D1 path and summon a skeleton for 30 fatigue instead. And if you haven't encountered similar problems with certain spells (Protection!!) for most nations, then you likely just haven't played the game enough.

But the point of the above example is to highlight how just one spell can screw up an entire nation's mage line-up, and this means adding new spells *really* has to tested in relation to how they affect the casting AI of mages, and not just "what the spell does". During my testing I also found that (unsurprisingly) mage-priests got an even more rotten deal with the casting-AI, as they can be easily distracted from using their mage paths if even one banishment target is on the battlefield (and not just in testing, as skelly spam to distract mage-priests is an example of just one tactic I'm sure many players will testify to having seen/used). And if there are H2 mage-priests around, then one sight of a deomn will see them spamming smite demon all day long (regardless of how high it's MR is)

And having looked at the Holy War mod this morning, I think a few spells there could potentially just make a mage-priest pretty much redundant in battle. As spells like True Heal and Divine Protection could easily see mage-priests happy to spam them all day long in every battle. Which may be good for *just* priests, but not so good for mage-priests, who will likely have something better to do with their mage paths than lightly healing/buffing a handful of troops.


Oddly, I'd be more confident personally about using llama's Well Behaved Wizard Mod than Holy Wars, since WBWM appears to be just a light version of a mod I'm currently working on to improve the casting AI, and as such I know that I've done a fair bit of battlefield testing on the effects that the changes have on the casting AI. But this confidence is purely my own, and there's no way I would project it outwards by saying my mod is ready for testing in a real game. And certainly not outside of a game with the stark proclaimer of *This is a very casual game to test an extremely experimental mod, and the consequences it will have on a proper game are totally unknown. As such please don't play if you don't like the thought of your game being potentially ruined due to changes the mod makes to how spell-casting works*


I'm not sure if I will be playing in this game yet, but whether or not I do isn't relevant to what I've said above. I'm all for creating mods and seeing them get some air time for testing, but like I said at the very top, I think some clarification is needed from those in charge on what the guinea pig setting for this game will be (since don't forget, if the game ends up using CBM 1.83, then there are still sections of that which are comparatively un-tested as well)

[WraithLord]

Amazing how you manage to articulate things I think even before I manage to find out exactly what's itching me

Oh and due to your post I'd like to change my vote re. holy war. I prefer to play it safe, just CBM 1.83 + the two nation mods.
Edit: llamabeast, if you are gonna play and think holy war is safe then you have my vote
I'm now officially seconding your vote.

Amhazair, you better decide something soon before we vote our selves to death on the mods

[llamabeast]

Well, Holy War has already seen a fair bit of MP testing. The new version is just a slightly toned down version of the well tested version. I don't remember having any issues in previous games with the mod, and certainly no-one has reported anything about AI problems.

[llamabeast]

I think I will play in this game after all, if there's still space for me.

My votes (predictably) are for CBM1.83 and for Holy War, since I think Burnsaber did a nice job on it and it's interesting.

[llamabeast]

Oh gosh how confusing! Well, just to say I'm happy either way.

[LoloMo]

I'm sure we'll have fun whichever mod we have. I'm still for including lesser holy war, and the AI mod. As experienced players, we'll adapt and exploit the hell out of any loopholes. And make sure we win the battle by round 5!!

[Amhazair]

First off, for those looking for answers from me: I did say I'd be gone for the weekend, and would see about making final decisions after getting back, so shame on you for all your impatience!

You do have a good point about casting AI behaviour Calahan, (which I admit I did not think about) but since all people who expressed an opinion before were in favour of using the Holy War mod, and since Llamabest assures us there were no issues with the previous well-tested version that's good enough for me.

I'll update the OP to refelct we'll be using CBM 1.83 and the Holy war mod.

With Llamabeast joining and Rabelais dropping out (Have a good rest I'd say ) we have 14 players so far. (If Calahan confirms participation.) While there's obviously room for more I see no specific reason to hang around waiting for more with a nice field of players allready assembled and no new signups the last two days. I propose we start making our nation choices and send them to Sasooli. (I asked him to turn on his PM's). Anyone new signing up before nations are assigned is obviously still free to join.

In the meantime (and assuming no more people sign up: Any map suggestions? From the ones I have on my disk Cradle of Dominion seems the best fit. (Rather roomy, but not too much so, and not too many water provinces.)

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Amhazair

First off, for those looking for answers from me: I did say I'd be gone for the weekend, and would see about making final decisions after getting back, so shame on you for all your impatience!

Disappointed to hear about your lack of omnipresence. But Dimaz might have been around (although not sure what decision making powers you've given him during the design stage)

Originally Posted by Amhazair

You do have a good point about casting AI behaviour Calahan, (which I admit I did not think about) but since all people who expressed an opinion before were in favour of using the Holy War mod, and since Llamabest assures us there were no issues with the previous well-tested version that's good enough for me.

I'll update the OP to refelct we'll be using CBM 1.83 and the Holy war mod.

I'd be interested in knowing what games the mod has seen action in, and in particular what nations and players were involved. As nations without (important) mage-priests like (all LA) Man, Jomon, Pangaea won't be affected much at all by a load of new holy spells. But the likes of Arco, Mictlan, TC to name just a few of the many in LA with mage-priests, could have they top line mages severely affected by a load of new spells. Plus some players don't tend to scrutinise the battle replays close enough to report feedback on this sort of thing, as it's nowhere near the same as testing units. Since if you got royally stuffed in a fight, you're unlikely to replay it several times to notice your mage-priests casting junk, and hence report it as a problem

And I hate to sound like the elitist jerk I know I am, but there are very few players I trust when it comes to testing and providing proper feedback, and that list narrows to less than the digits on one hand when it comes to observing casting AI behaviour. Since when wars are going well and you are tanking someone hard, who bothers to take the time to notice what your mage priests were casting after the 6th round. And while I haven't tested Holy Wars mod yet to know for certain how it affects nations (but I will try to soon), I do know enough about the problems with mage-priests in general to know you likely can't just add new holy spells and expect there not to be potentially adverse side-effects. Especially for 0 fatigue spells (I'd be surprised if Faith Healing wasn't very popular with the casting AI).

It way well be that most nations aren't that effected at all, and most may well benefit. But if just one nation/player has their game severely compromised or even ruined by these new spells due to no fault of their own, then I for one would find that very unfair, and even wrong. And that's regardless of whether I was that nation or I was fighting it (since I certainly don't want to win fights or wars due to problems caused by a mod. And I'd rather be that nation in that case for the challenge, rather than fighting against it with an unfair advantage)

But democracy has spoken it seems, even though democracy often just sees people voting "we want more" (which is one reason why it sucks). Do you want more spells? "Yes". Do you want the government to mint lots and lots of extra money and give it freely to everyone? "Yes, that sounds great". More != good, as it's almost never that straightforward.

Anyway I've said my bit, so I'll shut up and leave it there I think.

Originally Posted by Amhazair

(If Calahan confirms participation.)

I'll hopefully be able to let you know in a few days. Also, I think you've left a few players off the list (Ghoul31, NooBliss), unless they are still awaiting clearance.

Originally Posted by Amhazair

In the meantime (and assuming no more people sign up: Any map suggestions? From the ones I have on my disk Cradle of Dominion seems the best fit. (Rather roomy, but not too much so, and not too many water provinces.)

Here are two wraparounds to consider.

Riverlands (231+17) - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43606

or if you want a tighter fit

GreeeceStain (181+18) - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44078


The Wiki has a good range of maps to browse through (and the llamaserver has most as well)
http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Category:Map


Edit - Are caps going to be VP marked? and are starts going to be random, or is someone going to place them? If the latter, then the former will decide the range of people who can do that. Since if caps are not VP marked, you need someone not playing to fix the starts. And VP caps also means "capture and hold capitals for X turns" is a trickier option, as the game auto-ends once the target is reached (although there are ways around this by setting the in-game requirement to all VP's, but then using out-of-game requirements at half+1 pr whatever. Which is no probelm as long as players are aware the in-game winning line on the VP-graph isn't the actual winning line. If that makes sense)

[Amhazair]

Originally Posted by Dimaz

Noobliss definitely has enough exp for this game.

All right, I'll take your word for it. (You are the all-powerfull adming after all. Added to the list.

Originally Posted by Calahan

[Here are two wraparounds to consider.

Riverlands (231+17) - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43606

or if you want a tighter fit

GreeeceStain (181+18) - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=44078

From just looking at the map image GreeceStain appears to work best with exactly 18 players. I do like Riverlands though. Again, a bit roomy right now, (16.5 prov/player if we stay at 15) but not too much so, and offers enough room if a couple more players sign up. Unless I hear protests or we somehow manage to fill up to 20+ players I say we stick with that one. I see no specific reason to fix start location if the map is balanced, but if others have a different opinion that's fine with me too.

Originally Posted by Calahan

Lots of words about VP

In my opinion managing to take half+1 capitals in a competitive field pretty much means you've won, don't really feel the need to add to the bookkeeping with a 'hold for 3 turns' clause. Neither do I mind the fact Capital locations will be known if marked as VP's mysels. But, once again, I'm more than happy to change my mind if others prefer other conditions. (Hence the ? behind my proposal in the OP.)

[P3D]

Originally Posted by Amhazair

In the meantime (and assuming no more people sign up: Any map suggestions? From the ones I have on my disk Cradle of Dominion seems the best fit. (Rather roomy, but not too much so, and not too many water provinces.)

The Cradle map will give two or three players poor starting locations (3-4 low-resource neighbors). What about the (fixed) Riverlands map?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43606