Vote

[Zeldor]

That's why QM should release changelog for 1.8, there are really tens of nation balance changes

[WraithLord]

Well nations like TNN/Van would need two things post 1.7:
A. Adapt to different play style. Thugs are economically good for PD raiding. For anything more than that the player would need to pay much more hence tough decisions. So with thugs getting minor role post 1.7 a nation like TNN would have less reasons to take ubber bless and more reasons to take a more diverse pretender + better scales, I'm not sure it's that bad but it ain't enough so:
B. Some form of compensation would be required for such nations. Maybe buff their recruit-able thugs a bit, maybe more starting gems, maybe better starting equipment on thugs.
Like give TNN thugs a frost brand and make them cost 100g more.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Well nations like TNN/Van would need two things post 1.7:
A. Adapt to different play style. Thugs are economically good for PD raiding. For anything more than that the player would need to pay much more hence tough decisions. So with thugs getting minor role post 1.7 a nation like TNN would have less reasons to take ubber bless and more reasons to take a more diverse pretender + better scales, I'm not sure it's that bad but it ain't enough so:
B. Some form of compensation would be required for such nations. Maybe buff their recruit-able thugs a bit, maybe more starting gems, maybe better starting equipment on thugs.
Like give TNN thugs a frost brand and make them cost 100g more.

At the moment glamoured thugs can do more than just PD raiding. Properly equipped they can take down SCs. At the same time, they are fragile. A single casting of drain life will waste the investment in them. And fighting a nation like Jotun late game they suffer a horribly high attrition rate between flying, magic attack blood summons and skratti's casting life for a life or claws of kokytos or just killing them in melee (aside from the usual counters like mind hunt).

I'd be pretty sad to have my favorite part of the game resigned to raiding PD due to increase in forging costs and nerf to brands (in particular the non-AP frost brand).

As far adapting to a different play style, one of the big advantages Van has over TNN, and especially Eriu, is that they have other options. Obviously one of those options, blood magic, took a big hit with 1.7. But assuming a dousing bonus is in the works that would still be viable. But I'm not sure what Eriu can adapt to. Sure, they can go for great scales but I don't see that as being a winning proposition against other nations that favor good scales but also have excellent troops, cost effective researchers, good non-cap mages, access to D/S/B, etc. What they've got is their thugs. I think in this case you really need to add some more options to the nation. Reducing the thugging potential of the nation without providing alternatives is painful. Note: Zeldor mentioned things already being in the works so perhaps this is already being addressed.

Also, I think one reason to replace built-in gear with forged gear is so that a casting of destruction/iron bane doesn't ruin your thug's day. Assuming a built-in frost brand was susceptible to those spells (haven't tested it) I wouldn't want to pay 100 more for an already expensive 280 gold unit.

Lastly, rdonj mentioned he expected to see more thugs relative to SCs. It's an interesting question (I'd expect the opposite) but aside from the ratio of thugs to SCs it seems reasonable to assume the absolute number of both will decrease. Given that, I think it's reasonable to increase the cost of mind hunt from 2 to 3 gems (don't have the game in front of me so if that's already the cost in 1.7 then ignore that suggestion).

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

B. Some form of compensation would be required for such nations. Maybe buff their recruit-able thugs a bit, maybe more starting gems, maybe better starting equipment on thugs.
Like give TNN thugs a frost brand and make them cost 100g more.

Funny thing, I had the same idea Thus I of course think WraithLords idea is excellent

[Slobby]

I voted to remove all 4. *shrug* if a strat/nation needs those things to be competitive then the nation itself isn't competitive seeing how all nations potentially have access to the same things...all those things (cept the sites of course) create micro and don't increase my enjoyment of the game.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Slobby

I voted to remove all 4. *shrug* if a strat/nation needs those things to be competitive then the nation itself isn't competitive seeing how all nations potentially have access to the same things...all those things (cept the sites of course) create micro and don't increase my enjoyment of the game.

Vanheim and Helheim can make use of both blood and thugs. By removing access to both, you take out two of their tools to win. I wouldn't call either strong, but they could definitely compete with other nations without the nerf. I don't think they can without. So imo they move from competitive to loser status in CBM 1.7. On the other hand, Agartha or Eriu weren't competitive anyway but that's not a reason to make them worse.

[Executor]

If choice is good how can you approve of crippling Van and Eriu?
I think this of all things limits, or even more eliminates some choices for them.
All are affected, true, but some much more that others. Van on the other hand for example had pretty expensive blood hunters to begin with, add to that they just lose half of their blood income, and got a pretty lousy deal on their thugs. Higher item costs, lower brend damage.
I agree with Valerius on every point, their thugs are incredibly fragile,and the only thing they had going for them is that they were cost effective and could sneak in. Now they can just sneak in and raid provicnes.
The idea of increasing gold cost as to add brends or some other item to them at the start is plain terrible imo. That will only result in overpriced-underpowered mages that you wont even to able to mass in any meaningful number for a real battle rather than just thug them out.

[Slobby]

Once again I fail to see how removing hammers breaks Van and Eriu in terms of their ability to thug when every other nation is under the same limitations.

And if anything thugs might actually be seen earlier without hammers since no one would be waiting around to have hammers to kit out their thugs.

To me hammers are not a prereq for thugging.

[Executor]

Under the same limitation? Yes, affected the same by the same limitation? No.
It breaks the effectiveness of their thugs. A hammers 25% forge bonus is not always just a 25% forge bonus. Take fire brend for example, their price went from 6 to 10, that a 40% increase in gems. As did rainbow armor. Frost brend isn't much more expensive but is less valuable given that is isn't even AP and had a reduction in damage and son on...

I fail to see how it doesn't screw them up royally given they pretty much have to rely on thugs since they can't really depend on national mages with great paths or excellent troops.

[Slobby]

Originally Posted by Executor

Under the same limitation? Yes, affected the same by the same limitation? No.
It breaks the effectiveness of their thugs. A hammers 25% forge bonus is not always just a 25% forge bonus. Take fire brend for example, their price went from 6 to 10, that a 40% increase in gems. As did rainbow armor. Frost brend isn't much more expensive but is less valuable given that is isn't even AP and had a reduction in damage and son on...

I fail to see how it doesn't screw them up royally given they pretty much have to rely on thugs since they can't really depend on national mages with great paths or excellent troops.

Taking away a 25% forge bonus does not take away from the effectiveness of their thugs. Their thugs are just as effective. Taking away a 25% forge bonus takes away from their ability mass produce thugs (and this is relative to the pre and post hammer nerf!). The thug effectiveness is just the same.

And there are so many limitations on top of this. The fact that their thugs are what 250-350 gold. So there is monetary constraint. Looking over their starting gem income there is also gem constraint. There is no guarantee that you'll get the optimal gems you need.

Also consider they're aiming at what a min 3 item forge? To get to their 'optimal' thug producing point they need 3 hammers to kit out a thug/turn. That's an investment of 37 E gems. And of course since we're talking about an item that makes forging economical so continually input E gems into the equation as they're making more and more hammers.

I feel as though while making this explanation I coulda made thugs taken my glamour troops and rushed someone by now secured more gems kitted more thugs made more glamoured troops and hit the next.

I could be wrong, but I think the pace of games may just slow down a hair without hammers, so it'll all be compensated through time.

And regardless if QM feels that they're suxor and chooses to buff it is what it is. Although I think if anything the thuggy mages should be reduced in price and/or given better gear and left at the same price. As I said previously if a strat for a nation is broken due to the removal of hammers then the nation itself is the problem not hammers.