Yet another new person with a question...

[Squirrelloid]

Hey, my first game was on the demo as Kailasa, and let me tell you, that was an *awful* beginner's nation. (Also, i didn't realize you could increase dominion, so i had dom1 - it was pretty hilarious.)

[Foodstamp]

That reminds me of my first game; I was dom killed before the end of the first year and had no idea what killed me.

[13lackGu4rd]

fantasma, I'm not assuming anything, I'm just saying that different people use different approaches, so you can't underestimate all of them like HoneyBadger did. I've acknowledged both types you were talking about. however, you are mistaken in that there is no best beginner's nation. well maybe not 1 best but there are certainly better and worst beginner nations, no matter what approach you use.

the more complex the nation is, the harder it is for new players. the more balanced the nation is, as in no overwhelming strengths and weaknesses, the harder it is for newbies. the more choices the player has to make playing a nation, the harder it is for newbies. with that in mind, EA TC is a very balanced nation, doesn't have any overwhelming strengths(at least not from a newbie's perspective), has to make a lot of choices(which infantries to use, how to mix in archers, positioning, mixing combat magic or not, etc). with the power house nations it's basically pick a bless, recruit sacreds and priests to bless them and go steamroll the AI. much simpler, hence more newbie friendly.

[HoneyBadger]

13lackgu4rd: Your side is arguing this debate from false assumptions (that new players are privy to knowledge that precludes them from counting as "new players" at all, in my opinion), and then basically suggesting that they're "attracted to shiny things", in other words. Are they squirrels?

How exactly am I underestimating anyone?
Who's to say that a new player isn't from China, and initially interested in the way the game portrays their country's mythology? Who's to say they even have internet access?

I have to assume that your and my definition of the word "assumption" is very different. Especially as you are the one making gross assumptions about my own self, or at the very least, arguing against my posts in a rather derrogatory way.

Why would a balanced Nation be harder for a new player to play? What difference would that make? And why would "more choices" translate to more difficulty, if all the choices are basically good ones? And if you can win with Tien Ch'i, purely by picking something randomly, and building enough of it to overwhelm the AI, which you can, I've tested it (possibly aside from elephants, but it's still the AI using them, which means not using them particularly well--and which you can beat, easily, with Tien Ch'i, and which you can also avoid.), then why would you need to mix in troops or combat magic?

And if you're not using 9/10ths of a Nation, anyway, how much fun are you having? Considering that the point here is to translate new players into experienced players, I feel that the level of fun is a pretty big factor. How replayable is Niefelheim, if all you ever do are build skinshifters?

You haven't managed to do anything more than continue to state your original argument, in slightly different, but still uncompelling ways, without taking any opposing arguments into consideration. And now you seem to be edging rather close to making personal attacks.

[rdonj]

HoneyB. Please calm down. This is getting far too personal and if you reread some of your posts, I think you'll agree you aren't exactly helping.

I'm not quite sure why this seems to be such a do or die argument to make. I've said my peace, I feel I've made valid points, and I've moved on. Just what nation the new player plays is not so important as to be worth a week debating whether one or the other is "better". Obviously we all have different opinions on this, and they aren't going to be swayed easily.

At this point the only thing I'm interested in is hearing how playing is going for the original poster... assuming he hasn't been scared away from his own thread due to our bickering.

[Squirrelloid]

The squirrels take exception to your intended insult.

You're still confusing learning the interface with learning the game. Learning the interface is easier if you can focus on learning the interface and not have to learn the game at the same time.

For the sake of argument, i loaded up a vanilla EA TC game. And looked at 7 slightly different infantry options. I can't even tell you which one a new player would recruit. Sure, I know what the differences are, but they're subtle if you don't know what you're looking for.

Now, despite this, i thought i'd give it a try under the same conditions I played Nieflheim. Of course, i had to do research, because there's nothing else to do with commander buys early, so i chose evocation because it sounds good for killing stuff. Not only did i lose with starting army + 1st turn recruits on their second battle (Nieflheim's went 12 straight victories, including conquering Marveni's home province), and after resupply only went 3 more battles before needing to be resupplied again. It also took much longer to assemble suitable forces for expansion or fighting, and armies took significantly more casualties than nieflheim (as a %) and suffered a greater loss of fighting power because of them. Expansion was much slower. Didn't get to fighting the AI yet, not sure its worth doing so, can't imagine things will go much better.

Now, TC can improve quite a bit with cleverness (any cleverness), but the whole point of the test was to see how foolproof it was. Nieflheim is much more foolproof than TC.

[13lackGu4rd]

I tried really hard to not get into a quoting contest with you, however you've crossed the line HoneyBadger! so, here we go...

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

13lackgu4rd: Your side is arguing this debate from false assumptions (that new players are privy to knowledge that precludes them from counting as "new players" at all, in my opinion), and then basically suggesting that they're "attracted to shiny things", in other words. Are they squirrels?

as soon as you stop "argument mode" and try to actually read what I've written than you'll understand how ridiculous your claim is. I'll even quote a part of my last post, which proves you wrong.

Originally Posted by 13lackGu4rd

EA TC can and will lose to indies if you're coming from a completely clueless attitude, there's only so much you can produce in order to outproduce 3-6 AIs... with Niefelheim you can easily do that because you don't rely on masses but on small groups of quality groups that suffer much less attrition damage.

in case you haven't noticed the bold part is exactly what you've been missing. and this post is not the first in which I mention something similar to it!

How exactly am I underestimating anyone?
Who's to say that a new player isn't from China, and initially interested in the way the game portrays their country's mythology? Who's to say they even have internet access?

to hear about dominions you must have internet access, it's still not in retail stores, remember...? so, nobody from China can speak English? that's shocking! wait, so how did they get this game in the first place...? I wasn't aware that there was a Chinese version of Shrapnel's website, but to be honest I didn't exactly look for 1 either so I don't know, just doubting it...

oh and by the way, your points, as ridiculous as they are, which I tried to show above, are also completely irrelevant. you clearly don't understand my point so you're arguing BS instead. you are underestimated people because many do actually read available material before playing, many new players are already on IRC and asking questions before even their first single player game! but how would you know? you're never on IRC... so you're underestimating people, I've presented you with that alternative, and my argument also works for your underestimated audience as well, so there's really no substance in your argument!

I have to assume that your and my definition of the word "assumption" is very different. Especially as you are the one making gross assumptions about my own self, or at the very least, arguing against my posts in a rather derrogatory way.

excuse me, but don't put me on the Sombre wagon and you as part of the Spanish Inquisition! derogatory way? wait, now you're becoming Shrapnel? anyone who disagrees with you is automatically offending you? cause otherwise I don't see how any of my posts could be seen as derogatory.

Why would a balanced Nation be harder for a new player to play? What difference would that make? And why would "more choices" translate to more difficulty, if all the choices are basically good ones? And if you can win with Tien Ch'i, purely by picking something randomly, and building enough of it to overwhelm the AI, which you can, I've tested it (possibly aside from elephants, but it's still the AI using them, which means not using them particularly well--and which you can beat, easily, with Tien Ch'i, and which you can also avoid.), then why would you need to mix in troops or combat magic?

and here we finally reach the crux of my argument, which you clearly failed to understand. "what difference would that make?" you ask. personally I think it's quite obvious, but I'll explain it to you thoroughly because obviously it isn't to you. the more choices one has the more he has to think about which choice he makes. in order to properly decide between choices one needs as much information regarding said choices. as for "all choices being good", sorry but I must disagree with you on this. with TC all your choices are mediocre, it's only smart scripting and usage of battle magic that makes them good, but neither of those things are very newbie friendly, especially if they fit into your completely clueless about the game type.

heck, Squirrelloid answered this exact point of yours in the post above this 1. and those tests(as well as what you've described) were only against AI indies, not even AI nations! AI nations have a lot more troops than indies, 300+ troops in their armies are very common, could easily be more too! good luck fighting that with TC's troops without any clever tactics or magic that would actually require some knowledge of the game!

And if you're not using 9/10ths of a Nation, anyway, how much fun are you having? Considering that the point here is to translate new players into experienced players, I feel that the level of fun is a pretty big factor. How replayable is Niefelheim, if all you ever do are build skinshifters?

and all this is relevant how...? we're talking about one's first single player game! we're not yet talking about replay-ability and all that... by the way, Niefelheim is very re-playable but that's an entirely different issue, and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

also, how do you expect to use more than 1/10th of a nation with no prior knowledge on the game? 9/10ths of every nation involves smart scripting, usage of rituals, usage of battle magic, forging items, communions, thugs, SCs, etc. how exactly will a new player, especially your type of new player, deal with all those things on their first single player game??? exactly, they can't... and it doesn't matter whether they're using Niefelheim or TC.

You haven't managed to do anything more than continue to state your original argument, in slightly different, but still uncompelling ways, without taking any opposing arguments into consideration. And now you seem to be edging rather close to making personal attacks.

you haven't managed to make any argument of your own, only show utter misunderstanding of my(and others') arguments. instead you're trying to argue irrelevant points, and you fail even at those. I'm being close to personal attacks? where exactly? I've kept this argument very much to the point, all I did was disagree with you and show you why you're not making any sense. has nothing to do with a difference in opinion, it has to do with understanding the facts, which are indisputable, as they're "facts", look it up...

however, this post is a clear personal attack on me, no matter how hard you try to sugar coat it. good job doing what you're falsely accusing others of doing, keep up the good work!

[fantasma]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

You're still confusing learning the interface with learning the game. Learning the interface is easier if you can focus on learning the interface and not have to learn the game at the same time.

This is a perfect example of a wrong assumption. I, for example, am not able to convince myself to focus learning an interface for the sake of it and then move on to learn the game. I would have stopped along the way pretty soon.

BTW, it took me months to realize one can buy PD. Who reads the fine manual, you know?

[13lackGu4rd]

Originally Posted by fantasma

This is a perfect example of a wrong assumption. I, for example, am not able to convince myself to focus learning an interface for the sake of it and then move on to learn the game. I would have stopped along the way pretty soon.

BTW, it took me months to realize one can buy PD. Who reads the fine manual, you know?

bold part is exactly our point... dominions is a game with a very steep learning curve. you can't just jump right in and expect to know everything on first sight. sure, it will work in most games, but this is not 1 of them... it takes time and patience to even learn all the basics, in case you haven't noticed yet, dominions is a pretty complex game.

P.S even so called "vets" do not yet know everything there is to know about this game, so newbies...?

[rdonj]

To be honest, with your latest posts I would have to say you've both gotten into the realm of personal attacks. I admit there's a pretty hostile feel to this thread overall now.