Sons of Kaleva, a Kalevala mod

[Endoperez]

I'll release an initial version soon. I'd like to give them some more recruitables, but I hope their existing ones are enough. I want a better name, though. This isn't about Kalevala, but about mythological Finland. I can't use "Sons of Kaleva" either, because that'd refer to giants.

I might use Arnfinnr. It comes from old Norse saying "To do an Arnfinn" - to utterly beat an opponent in every way possible. I'd like to release it as soon as possible, so suggestions are welcome. Especially from Finns, and especially if any of the new Finns here happen to be university professors of Finnish language, pre-christian myths and military.

[Lingchih]

Well done Endo. I can't wait to play it. Thanks much.

[HoneyBadger]

I'm not Finnish-not very anyway, although there's certainly some old Norse blood in me.

The only thing I can really add, if you're looking for names, is that I often take words from ancient languages, or languages that I don't speak, and name units after words that *might* refer/apply/invoke them. It's hard, without years of devoted study (more than really is necessary just to make a decent mod) to convert any historical society into a Dominions nation, without losing some...reality(for lack of a better word) in the translation. But, as long as you respect your source, to the best of your ability, you can give it a proper homage, without having a degree in the language.

If a Romanian/Dacian/Kurgan linguistics professor ever plays my Cimmeria mod, they'll probably laugh at me, but atleast they'll maybe get the joke.
And I like to think that in some small part, I'm paying tribute to people, their culture and their language, that I'm to helping keep from being forgotten, which is important to me.

For example: 'Rautiainen' in Finnish-as far as I can find out-means "Blacksmith" or "from the family of a blacksmith". So if I were making a Finnish nation, and I had a spot for a commander with forging-or a big strapping soldier unit-I might name them "Rautianen". To further connect the non-commander unit to the meaning of the word, I might give them a small 5% forging bonus, if they were GORed. It's a minor advantage, but it still stays true-on some level, however shallow-to my desire to respect my source.

Fortunately, we've got Endoperez on the job, and I'm sure you can do a much better overall job than I ever could, because you have the motivation of your heritage. But it's always nice to "fill the gaps" with as close as you can get, linguistically, and if you can do that without pulling out all your hair, what's the harm?

[Jarkko]

Possible names:

Singersmiths

Ukkoseppo

Salon herrat or perhaps Salon Herra

Or perhaps Saloseppo

Incidently, you are aware that Lönnroth changed "Veen emonen" to "Väinämöinen"? Thus "Mother of Waters" turned to an old man with a with a funny instrument. Lönnroth had apparently decided it was not good to have a female creator/hero.

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Incidently, you are aware that Lönnroth changed "Veen emonen" to "Väinämöinen"? Thus "Mother of Waters" turned to an old man with a with a funny instrument. Lönnroth had apparently decided it was not good to have a female creator/hero.

This is the first I've heard of this. There are many poems in which the main character is a male sorcerer, and in which "Veen emonen" wouldn't fit, but Lönnrot could have changed it in few places. Perhaps the creation myth, where Väinämöinen is born from Ilmatar (air-ess, feminine personification of air) and then completes the creation of the world. Female creator-god might have been too controversial in Lönnrot's time.


Thanks for the suggestions.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Endoperez

This is the first I've heard of this. There are many poems in which the main character is a male sorcerer, and in which "Veen emonen" wouldn't fit, but Lönnrot could have changed it in few places. Perhaps the creation myth, where Väinämöinen is born from Ilmatar (air-ess, feminine personification of air) and then completes the creation of the world. Female creator-god might have been too controversial in Lönnrot's time.

It is well known and accepted fact that Lönnrot wrote many of the poems himself to make the story "better".

Btw, in the 1950s Martti Haavio, a well known linguistic researched, proved (or "proved", your choice ) wrong the assumotion that Veen Emonen and Väinämöinen are the same. It was apparently too controversial even in 50's if it had been proved our beloved figure Väinämöinen was in fact a female originally Anyway, the matter has again only recently been brought to light, and it may never be accepted as such.

Michael Agricola in 16th century listed Veen Emonen (or "Veden Emo", as he called her) as one of the mythological figures of Finland, but he did not for some reason list Väinämöinen. Personally I view that as the strongest proof, but then again what I think or don't think doesn't have that much of an impact on the linguistics

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

It is well known and accepted fact that Lönnrot wrote many of the poems himself to make the story "better".

Michael Agricola in 16th century listed Veen Emonen (or "Veden Emo", as he called her) as one of the mythological figures of Finland, but he did not for some reason list Väinämöinen. Personally I view that as the strongest proof, but then again what I think or don't think doesn't have that much of an impact on the linguistics

Agricola's list mentions Väinämöinen according to Wikipedia article about him (V, not A).

I found a newspaper article from 1820s that mentions Väinämöinen. This is years before Lönnrot had started collecting songs.
http://agricola.utu.fi/hist/kktk/vii...SV1820-11.html

The stories have the same feel as the ones told in Kalevala, except that Joukkavainen (compare to Joukahainen, Youkahainen) is his brother in one of the stories. They still meet and fight in another story. Before Kalevala, there must have been almost as many variations as there were storytellers.

I had written a longer post, but the forum arnfinnored it. I'll make a new thread to release the mod.



EDIT: Please move discussion about the mod to this thread, to avoid bumping this one.

[HoneyBadger]

Bump-Endoperez, how are things going on this?

[Endoperez]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Bump-Endoperez, how are things going on this?

I don't think I've done anything since the little update (the mod now uses unitNRs 3800+ and works with worthy heroes/Conceptual Balance) few weeks ago. I might write some descriptions now, but I won't have my own PC (or Dom3, or manual/modding manual, or Gimp) until I have to go back to school next week. Good descriptions are one of the things this mod needs, but I don't know if I can write anything coherent.


P.S. You bumped the wrong thread. Here's a link to the new one, with 0.87 available for download, and the latest discussions.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=40388

[HoneyBadger]

Huh...I *thought* you'd come out with a playable version, but there wasn't a downloadable file on this one, so I figured maybe you needed a bump