German ranks

[wulfir]

Here's an interesting piece regarding the initial fighting between the Japanese and Australians along the Kokoda track:

"The Japanese were easily able to push the Australians back: their numbers were far superior, as was their drill.

They would often send a scout forward and be prepared to lose him, which would be followed by an almost immediate strong frontal attack, in which quick casualties were often accepted. But the speed with which they then outflanked and encircled and destroyed the enemy reflected their light equipment, their excellent camouflage and, above all, their tremendous and almost silent deployment."

from A Bastard of a Place: The Australians in Papua, p 100.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Wuljur

Quotes from Orbis publishers WWII
Im still not sure what light infantry means, for instance
In the Kokoda campaign the Japanese infantry carried a 100 pounds load. Artilleryman and engineers carried an extra 16 pounds. "The Soldiers made a kind of woodmans carrying rack for their load and like pilgrims with portable shrines carried it on their backs. Now they plodded on, step by step supported by a stick through those mountains of New Guinea"
The Japanese had also dragged two 70mm howitzers and Mortars along this 3 ft wide track which made them -more- Heavily armed than their initial opponents the Australian Milita which had no howitzers and possibly no mortars.
Here is something from their manual
"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensly dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."
The New zealanders however did have night fighting training.
So it seems that in this situation scouting is indeed a hazardous operation, suicidal in fact ie because it is along a single track and the enemy is hidden in the jungle.
Ive found that in most detailed decriptions of Japanese jungle figthing that the speed of their response (excellent training) and speed through the jungle (excellent fitness) consistently amazed (and defeated) the Allies, which is why I used to like it when the Japs had 8 movement points instead of 7.

Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'
"We all talk about fighting to the last man and the last bullet. The Japanese soldier was the only one that did it"

[PanzerBob]

"Westerners- being very haughty , effeminate, and cowardly intensely dislike fighting in the rain or mist or in the dark. They cannot conceive night to be a proper time for battle though it is excellent for dancing. In these weaknesses lie our great opportunity."

This falls into the old adege that "The First Casuality of War is the Truth".

The Allies had similar prejudices of their "Jap" enemies which the front line soliders soon learnt were not true, and those who didn't, did so at their own peril.

The same was true of the German beliefs of the Russian and even American soldiers.

All part of the psychology of warfare, a part of war that if one forgets like logistics, one may find his army in deep kimchi.

Eternal War(gaming) PanzerBob

[wulfir]

chuckfourth said:
Heres a quote from the American Field Marshal 'Slim'

Slim was British.

"We are taking Umbrage."
- Calvert

[chuckfourth]

Howdy
You are correct confusing him with stillwell, check check and then check again.
Chuck

[narwan]

Light infantry has nothing to do with the amount of 'weight' a trooper carries into battle but refers to the TO&E and the organisation of the larger formation. Light formations have fewer heavy equipment and what they do have is often of a different kind. The 70mm howtizers you mentioned are a good example. They are much lighter than what one usually finds in a comparable infantry formation and can be carried in parts by mule. The example you gave that the japanese had some arty at Kokoda only illustrates why light infantry (the japanese) is sometimes better than regular (or heavy) infantry (the Australian CMF troops); their lighter equipment can go where the heavier equipment of the normal formations can't (or not in time at least).

[Marek_Tucan]

I dare guess light infantry troops in fact do hump more on their backs than regular infantry - they're light because they have a light rear - less trucks, less and lighter guns and so on... On some case it enables them to do as Japanese during their advance to Port Moresby (or to Singapore or whatever), sometimes it turns against them (Guadalcanal, Milne Bay, almost any place where the Allies have already learned "how to"...).

[chuckfourth]

Hi Narwan
The 70mm is a good and a bad example at battalion level it was heavier than the equivelent in other armies, a mortar. At divisional level it was lighter than the usual 105mm (though the Japanese did have a 105 and 150mm howitzers in common usage). The British had the 88mm (25pounder) as the standard infantry divisions divisional gun. But nobody would call the English light infantry.
So... the Japanese infantry divisions had just as much artillery as any other countries sometimes more, ie the standard 3 battalions per division but also their regimental guns, missing in most other countries TOE.
They had engineers and Recon, antitank and antiaircraft assets and sometimes tanks.
So So they dont have "fewer heavy equipment" other than that their artillery was lighter than the equivelent calibre in other countries. By your definition Mountain troops must also light infantry?
check the Japanese OOBs at this site
http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificinfo/japanese.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin...anjapanese.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin..._jpn109div.pdf
http://www.fireandfury.com/pacificin...aneseburma.pdf
Best Regards Chuck.

[chuckfourth]

Hi Marek
Please see my previous post but the Japs had just as much artillery as everyone else. German infantry divisions didnt have any trucks they used horses but you dont call them light?
The problem for Japan at Milne Bay and guadalcanal wasnt the TOE of Japanese infantry divisions it was supply. The Americans controlled the sea and the Japanese had to make do with whatever didnt get sunk. Mine bay was attacked by litle more than a battalion there were 4500 australians there already, and at guadalcanal the Japanese never got much past regimental size attacking a division. In both cases they were attacking a well supplied numerically superior enemy, these were both battles of supply (The Japs had none) not of "how to".
Best Regards Chuck.

[PatG]

Mods: Can we move these Japanese posts to another thread please? Thanks.

Chuck - I select my sources carefully and was offended by your Hollywood comment.

Light infantry: There are two different but not exclusive definitions of light infantry. The first is infantry that fights much like any other infantry but is optimized for rapid deployment thus uses less and lighter equipment overall - think rapid deployment forces. The second is an infantry force that (among other things): emphasizes the ability to move through difficult terrain, places more control at lower command levels, and emphasizes training, mindset and tactics over materiel. McMichael, mentioned earlier, goes into a lot more detail.

By this definition German mountain troops are light troops but horse drawn artillery isn't - the horses are simply a different form of truck for towing the arty.

Turning to the arty, By rough numbers (all sources vary) the Type 92 70mm gun clocks in at 212 kg, the German leIG 18 comes in at 400 kg and the American 75mm pack howitzer at 1060 kg. For comparison, the Type 11 37mm popgun weighs 93 kg (its French ancestor with shield at 103 kg). It is readily apparant that the Type 92 is a very different beast even from other infantry guns. While a mortar would be even lighter, the direct fire capability may offset the extra weight.

Supply - I agree that supplies or lack there of was the downfall of the Japanese. Even Yamamoto-sama knew that before Japan attacked the Allies. Sadly, there is no way in the campaign game of depicting this so we are forced to use fully supplied, full strength units. ;(

Finally, in some very rough tests for the long Japanese campaign I am playing, I have found that regular German or Allied infantry force can put up a fight against a Chinese horde attack but a points equivalent Japanese force cannot - at least not using conventional tactics. The Japanese oob feels "different" from any of the Western or Russian forces. Not scientific but there ya go.