Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[Vicious Love]

My bad. I guess we're all in agreement, and all is in harmony. Can I get a round of Kumbaya?

[Tuidjy]

I have always assumed that Celestial Masters being 2W1S as opposed
to 1W2S was a 'feature' like Conquerors of the Sea having 'Holy Pyre'
as their starting spell.

[PDF]

Tuidjy said:
I have always assumed that Celestial Masters being 2W1S as opposed
to 1W2S was a 'feature' like Conquerors of the Sea having 'Holy Pyre'
as their starting spell.

It surely is, but the thing is that eventually they suck ... [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

[Soapyfrog]

By 'feature' I beleive he means 'bug'...

[deccan]

Okay, this is another "Caelum is dreadfully overpowered" post, so I fully expect to elicit some harsh comments in response. But I think that my points are valid, so please correct me where I'm wrong:

1) Caelum has cheap, very, very effective, clamhoard capable, recruit anywhere mages. Okay, Caelum is a "magocracy" so we'll skip this.

2) Caelum has a cheap for its price 3H priest. I mean 90 gp for a 3H priest is a really good buy. The closest thing I can think of is TC's "Minister of Rituals" at 100 gp. But the Caelum Version flies, is cold immnune, is stealthya and comes with a magic weapon (though admittedly that's not likely to be used much). Granted, Caelum has no 2H priest to recruit, but indy 2H priests can be recruited just about anywhere with just a temple for the standard price of 50 gp.

3) Caelum has what must be one of the best scouts in the game. It flies, resists cold, and costs exactly the same as the standard indy scout! It even has better armor than the standard scout!

4) Caelum has what I think is a decidedly above average sacred troop for a very reasonable price in the form of the "Temple Guard". It even comes with a built-in magic weapon to break mistformed SCs and kill ethereal stuff, so you won't need a fire 9 blessing with them. They have a pretty good defense so it might be interesting to do a water 9 blessing with them. Sure, their defense is not in a league with Vans but then they are a long way from being as expensive as Vans and Vans sure don't have their armor.

Okay, their armor breaks down in hot lands, but they get better in cold lands too. Besides, Abysian Lava Warriors have disadvantages in cold lands too and most people think they are a pretty good sacred troop.

Okay, they are resource intensive, but just because people usually take Sloth 3 as Caelum doesn't mean that they HAVE to.

5) Caelum does not have bad national troops. I think their national troops are actually rather good. They have good archers (especially with Wind Guide as a free starting spell). Their archers have 12 precision, same as longbowmen though of course they use shorter ranged and less damaging shorbows.

Their infantry actually has pretty good stats and are reasonably priced. The complaint that most people have is not that their infantry is bad at fighting. It's that because of their flying ability, they don't tank for archers in the way that they are supposed to. In fact, what Caelum wants is strategic flight, but they don't want tactical flight. Without tactical flight, Caelum infantry can hold and attack just like normal infantry and tank for archers. There are workarounds to this, for example, setting the infantry to guard commander to a carefully placed seraphine who is herself set to only cast spells for example.

6) Caelum because of cold 3 has spare points to play with.

So what disadvantages does Caelum have? I can only think of two:

1) Caelum has crappy PD. There's nothing redeeming to be said about infantry that flies straight up to be killed fairly quickly, though I wonder if the free magic weapons and free seraphine might be good against SG Ermor.

2) Caelum has supply problems and has no easy access to nature magic to alleviate that. I have no answer to that.

When all's said and done, Caelum's advantages are immense. People say that Caelum's one big advantage is their cheap mages, but it seems to me that Caelum has above average everything else AND cheap, good mages to boot. A while back, Cohen was complaining about how Abysia was terribly underpowered because all their stuff is so expensive. I don't agree with him by the way, and other people have pointed out that Abysia's stuff is more expensive to pay for more hit points and fire immunity. Well, Caelum has flying, built-in magic weapons, and cold immunity, but unless I'm very much mistaken, it doesn't seem to me that Caelum is paying anything for all this.

Okay, this is a bit of rant and I admit that I'm being beaten to a pulp by Caelum in an ongoing MP game (thanks Panther. ), but I'd still like to hear what others have to say to my points.

[Graeme Dice]

deccan said:
So what disadvantages does Caelum have? I can only think of two:

You missed the biggest one. Any unit that is both cold immune and lightning immune is untouchable by their mages.

[Chazar]

Graeme Dice said:
You missed the biggest one. Any unit that is both cold immune and lightning immune is untouchable by their mages.

Almost true. There is "IceStrike" however which does normal damage and is quite nice against weaklings like longdead...

Oh, and as a Caelum-lover, the PD is quite nice due to that Seraphine...

While TempleGuards suck, since they do not come in huge numbers and I cannot see how Caelum could be played effectively with a Bless-effect, but I uess a magocracy isnt supposed to be overly religious...

Size 3 units is a pain though: water breathing, sparse battle formations, food...

[Cainehill]

deccan said:
2) Caelum has a cheap for its price 3H priest. I mean 90 gp for a 3H priest is a really good buy. The closest thing I can think of is TC's "Minister of Rituals" at 100 gp. But the Caelum Version flies, is cold immnune, is stealthya and comes with a magic weapon (though admittedly that's not likely to be used much). Granted, Caelum has no 2H priest to recruit, but indy 2H priests can be recruited just about anywhere with just a temple for the standard price of 50 gp.

The 90 GP 3H priest isn't that great a deal. Consider the following:

Abysia:
2F3H, 200GP (over 50% more HPs, fire immune)
2F2B3H, 240 GP (90% more HPs, flying, fire immune)

Atlantis:
4H, 230 GP (300% HPs, amphibian, goo stats)

Pythium:
1A1W2S3H, 150 GP (same HPs, + great magic)

C'tis:
3H, 120GP or
2N1W1?3H, 190 GP (poison immune)

Arcoscephale:
1N3H, 110 GP (Magic andhealing)

Marignon:
1F3H, 110 GP (Magic and preaching bonus)

Pangaea:
1N3H, 110 GP (Magic, Awe, stealth, recuperation)

Vanheim:
2A1B3H, 280 GP (good magic, stealth, glamour, sailing, greatstats)

Jotun:
3H, 200 GP (350% HPs, cold immune, high-STR thug)

R'lyeh:
1S1?3H, 150 GP (300+% HPs, amphib, life drain, mindbLast)

Mictlan:
2B2?3H, 230-250 GP (variety of great magic)

Machaka:
3H, 90 GP

Looking at those priests, Caelum's doesn't look like it's particularly underpriced - its special abilities aren't that great, its stats aren't that great, etc. Other nations have Priest-3s that are more expensive, but cheap when you consider the magic or stats they get, and I'd _far_ rather have P3 mages than vanilla P3s, since you quickly build a stock of researchers who can call your pretender back in 1 turn if need be. With vanilla P3s, your pretender dies and _then_ you start buying them.

3) Caelum has what must be one of the best scouts in the game. It flies, resists cold, and costs exactly the same as the standard indy scout! It even has better armor than the standard scout!

None of which, except the flying, really means anything. A scout isn't going to be involved in fighting often, and while sneaking is immune to murdering winter anyway. It also requires enough resources that some fortified provinces might not be able to recruit one in a single turn, or won't be able to recruit any troops at the same time.

4) Caelum has what I think is a decidedly above average sacred troop for a very reasonable price in the form of the "Temple Guard". It even comes with a built-in magic weapon to break mistformed SCs and kill ethereal stuff, so you won't need a fire 9 blessing with them. They have a pretty good defense so it might be interesting to do a water 9 blessing with them. Sure, their defense is not in a league with Vans but then they are a long way from being as expensive as Vans and Vans sure don't have their armor.

Okay, they are resource intensive, but just because people usually take Sloth 3 as Caelum doesn't mean that they HAVE to.

Not resource intensive - incredibly resource intensive, as you can buy about 2.8 Vans for the same resources. And the Van isn't capital only, meaning that you can buy 10-20 a turn if desired and you have the gold. And the Vans have a strategic movement of 3, compared to the Temple Guard's _1_. You can't build Temple Guards in numbers, and if you do, you find it almost impossible to get them where they're needed.

When all's said and done, Caelum's advantages are immense. People say that Caelum's one big advantage is their cheap mages, but it seems to me that Caelum has above average everything else AND cheap, good mages to boot. A while back, Cohen was complaining about how Abysia was terribly underpowered because all their stuff is so expensive. I don't agree with him by the way, and other people have pointed out that Abysia's stuff is more expensive to pay for more hit points and fire immunity. Well, Caelum has flying, built-in magic weapons, and cold immunity, but unless I'm very much mistaken, it doesn't seem to me that Caelum is paying anything for all this.

Caelum's troops tend to have lower strength, lower HPs, and lower damage weapons than other nations infantry. (Ice Lance - damage 3, Ice Blade, D5, + 9 strength.) The magic weapons _only_ help against ethereal opponents, preferably low protection ones. Their troops are not above average, their priest isn't above average, their sacred troop is almost useless except on tiny maps.

The mages are above average, and their strategic movement is as well. (I think the flight might well be undervalued in their prices, but I don't think you can raise the prices much.) That's about it, imo.

[Graeme Dice]

Chazar said:
Almost true. There is "IceStrike" however which does normal damage and is quite nice against weaklings like longdead...

Longdead aren't lightning immune, but a bane lord with a ring of tamed lightning is.

[Cohen]

The fact is that Indies aren't lightning immune.
Caelum could take over indies faster than many other indipendents, and keep the research run.
This will provide more gold income for them as basis for the subsequent wars against active nations.