Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players.

You seem to be in a pessimistic mood today. ;-)

If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.

And to my knowledge the only nerfs that fall into the "because we felt like it" Category are these ones:

* Freak Lord size 6 -> 5.
* Atlantian scout protection 4 -> 2.
* Witch doc, research 5 -> 3 and cost 90 -> 80.

If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant.

[ June 24, 2004, 16:35: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by The Meal:
I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt. While I may suspend this for developers I actually have faith in, Illwinter is no longer one of these.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.

I agree, and I have not implied otherwise.

If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant.

It's significant insofar as IW is devoting time to trivialities (another word for something "insignificant") rather than spending whatever time it took to do those nerfs/tweaks to fix some of the longstanding bugs that have been listed in the bugs thread. I'm not worried about the nerfs in and of themselves (unlike Norfleet, who IMO takes the nerfing entirely too personally), but that they are doing them at all. IMO, and it's just that, IMO, IW has a limited amount of dev time and IMO it's best spent on real bugs. Zen (in fanboi mode) points to some of the bugs they've fixed but misses the point. The point is the bugs IW has not fixed (as yet) ... which might have been fixed if they were not distracted dealing with appeasing whiners and (IMO) wasting time with nerfs.

IMO, unless there is a gross play-balance issue (and I've yet to see any in Dom 2, even as far back as 2.02), the dev priority should be fixing bugs. After nearly all bugs are squashed, then they can have the luxury of tweaking stuff that isn't outright broken. None of the nerfs post-2.02 were necessary now. They could have waited. The game has other, more serious issues that (IMO) should be worked on first. When you are fixing a house, you deal with the foundation and roof before cosmetic things like paint and landscaping. Nerfs are cosmetic (IMO).

In fairness to IW, they have fixed many, many bugs. And they have great customer support and are nice people to talk to. But there are still plenty of bugs crawling around.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt.

I have yet to see an exception to this rule. Game company staff always seem to believe that if you can "beat them at their own game" then the game must be flawed, rather than it being the staffer's inferiority at play. Very few people can overcome their ego, recognize their limitations, and admit that someone else might actually be sharper than themselves (be it due to superior experience, intellect, or both).

Originally posted by Arryn:
It's significant insofar as IW is devoting time to trivialities (another word for something "insignificant") rather than spending whatever time it took to do those nerfs/tweaks to fix some of the longstanding bugs that have been listed in the bugs thread. I'm not worried about the nerfs in and of themselves (unlike Norfleet, who IMO takes the nerfing entirely too personally), but that they are doing them at all. IMO, and it's just that, IMO, IW has a limited amount of dev time and IMO it's best spent on real bugs. Zen (in fanboi mode) points to some of the bugs they've fixed but misses the point. The point is the bugs IW has not fixed (as yet) ... which might have been fixed if they were not distracted dealing with appeasing whiners and (IMO) wasting time with nerfs.

Which bugs are these? And maybe this hasn't been said enough, there are 2 members of the IW team. One the artist and one the coder. Certain things (including Balance issues or modification of units, creation of units, new maps, new themes, etc) can be done by one. The major bugs can only be dealt with by the other. Do you know what gets fixed first in patches? Previous bugs introduced, network and performance issues, coding problems (Battle Inconsistancy, Battle Speed, etc) that can be found (which is the hard part). Then after that the 'fluff' is introduced. Also IW is not distracted in dealing with whiners as much as they are doing what *they* want with the game. Which may not be what you want, or what bugs you think are important, or UI issues, or any number of things that you feel are important, because they do not feel the same importance.

IMO, unless there is a gross play-balance issue (and I've yet to see any in Dom 2, even as far back as 2.02), the dev priority should be fixing bugs.

That may not be their priority because they are working on a timeline. The single most important thing for patches and patches were battle inconsistancy and battle speed. They took time but were fixed. I don't see how you would assume that it isn't a priority, but as much as noone wants to hear it, this is two guys (one guy that can actually work on bugs) doing the fixing. If you'd like to apply for a job at Illwinter for a modest salary of nothing to be a programmer and debugger, I'm sure they'd take your application with some interest.

In fairness to IW, they have fixed many, many bugs. And they have great customer support and are nice people to talk to. But there are still plenty of bugs crawling around.

Noone said there wasn't. There are plenty of bugs around, probably more that we don't know about and probably will be in the future. Most are minor at this stage, non-game breaking. There are a few large UI and possibly AI issues that if could be resolved would make the game easier to bear, but IMO the bugs are relatively minor in comparison for the entire game.

Originally posted by Arryn:
I have yet to see an exception to this rule. Game company staff always seem to believe that if you can "beat them at their own game" then the game must be flawed, rather than it being the staffer's inferiority at play. Very few people can overcome their ego, recognize their limitations, and admit that someone else might actually be sharper than themselves (be it due to superior experience, intellect, or both).

Well considering I'm not a 'staffer' then this is likely true. I have heard the same about older women and crotchety old men, who claim cheating or any other reasoning for their own loss instead of just the way the game goes.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
I have heard the same about older women and crotchety old men, who claim cheating or any other reasoning for their own loss instead of just the way the game goes.

Actually, it's with young folk where this is most prevalent, especially teens. Most older folk are aware of their limitations, at least the ones that play games (gamers are by no means "average" or representative examples of the population at large).

By the by, being an older woman myself, and consistently always losing to you, I have never, ever, claimed you were cheating or any other reason for losing than that you simply outmaneuvered me, had better tactics, or simply knew the game far better than I. If I were to play Norfleet, I would not claim that I lost because his VQ is unfair/unbalanced. I would lose because he has a better strategy and knows how to play his strategy/nation better than I know mine. Whether he's impossible to beat is highly debateable. What is a fact is that I am not prepared to do so (and may never be).

The original motivation, methinks, for the creation of this thread (besides educating us inferior players) is to see if another expert player (Zen) could defeat Norfleet's Ermor strategy. The only real way to have known if the VQ was unbalanced (as well as clams, etc.) was to have played on a "level" playing field where two players, both experts at the game, battled it out.

That such a match is unlikely to occur is a great loss to the entire Dom 2 community.

Originally posted by Arryn:
Actually, it's with young folk where this is most prevalent, especially teens. Most older folk are aware of their limitations, at least the ones that play games (gamers are by no means "average" or representative examples of the population at large).

I think this is some sort of crazy perception issue as to what is young, old and 'in between'. I definitely agree the maturity of the 'young' players, some represented here in the Dom2 community was in question by myself and perhaps a few other people.

By the by, being an older woman myself, and consistently always losing to you, I have never, ever, claimed you were cheating or any other reason for losing than that you simply outmaneuvered me, had better tactics, or simply knew the game far better than I. If I were to play Norfleet, I would not claim that I lost because his VQ is unfair/unbalanced. I would lose because he has a better strategy and knows how to play his strategy/nation better than I know mine. Whether he's impossible to beat is highly debateable. What is a fact is that I am not prepared to do so (and may never be).

I never said you did, just giving a generality that I have seen (like playing Pictionary with an older women, is hell). But since most of the games I have played, I have played mostly 'staffers' (beta testers, artists, developers) in a variety of games and have found them to be very congenial and only rarely of your experience (changing the game because they were hammered by a particular strategy/style). Most of my experience with them is that they have crazy ideas of how they play the game which is not the most efficent/effective way and get beaten badly by someone who takes the game to the extreme ends.

The original motivation, methinks, for the creation of this thread (besides educating us inferior players) is to see if another expert player (Zen) could defeat Norfleet's Ermor strategy. The only real way to have known if the VQ was unbalanced (as well as clams, etc.) was to have played on a "level" playing field where two players, both experts at the game, battled it out.

That such a match is unlikely to occur is a great loss to the entire Dom 2 community.

I will reinstate the previous VQ with a mod if Norfleet is going to throw a tantrum and alot of people want to play/watch and it actually *would* be a benefit to the community (which I highly doubt, a benefit to the community but that's because I don't think that the strategies used are all that highly evolved and are largly based around the sway of the game and there is a large part of the game that is affected by game generated random features [starting positions, indeps, etc] but I could be wrong, I have been before). Though then other people might throw a tantrum. For all Norfleet's "I don't like to play a Modified game, it was made this way so I play it this way" he has distinct problems when the original game changes and has a fit whenever patches come out for Norfleet only knows why reasons.

[ June 24, 2004, 18:24: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

Maturity has little to do with age. I would bet few members of this forum could correctly guess mine.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Leave it to the newb, Norfleet, we'll surprise and annoy you every single time.

Anyway, I'm just looking to be a better player, so I thought this idea would be a great learning experience! I'm really not tryig to stir up a hornets nest all over again.

With that said, I'll drop it now and let both of you continue on with your religeous purges.

*secrectly hopes the two purges wind up smacking straight into each each other in the middle of the chaos wastes, prompting all out war and the inevitable destruction of one of the most powerful beings here*