Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[archaeolept]

I really can barely think of how to respond.

how does winning against a vampire queen imply balance? Vampire queens could be unbalanced (though the real interest/concern to me has to do w/ the full combo strat, not the VQ especially) and yet still be posssible to beat.

unless you take unbalanced as synonymous w/ "impossible to defeat"??? which would be a severe error in semantics.

edit: ++lol

thanks for the dictionary defintion and all, but
are you saying that the VQ is balanced because you can use her as a weight?

seriously, i think most people here are capable of looking up a word in a dictionary, but in the context of this game, what do you take "balance" as meaning?

[ May 07, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I really can barely think of how to respond.

how does winning against a vampire queen imply balance? Vampire queens could be unbalanced (though the real interest/concern to me has to do w/ the full combo strat, not the VQ especially) and yet still be posssible to beat.

Maybe you are confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use".

Meaning; as possible to defeat a VQ consistantly (and repeatedly, because of her immortality as well as a few other pretenders out there, which you get to) with the same amount of effort that it would take to defeat any other For Combat pretender with the same points used to create, items used to equip, research researched to script.

The fact that you have to beat it repeatedly is only a minor factor if the rate of attrition of defeating it is greater than the cost.

Edit: Added "For Combat", so the "What about a Great Sage, huh, Mr. Smartguy?" rebuttle doesn't surface.

[ May 07, 2004, 08:49: Message edited by: Zen ]

[archaeolept]

Maybe you are confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use".

how so?

There is a whole other thread detailing it. If you wern't able to pick up any of those specific strategies, options, both listed and from your own personal experience, there is no way I'm going to be able to pummel it into your comprehension.

[archaeolept]

again, lol. i wasn't looking for a rehash of possible anti-VQ strategies. I don't really care about that anyways. the "how so" was directly in relation to the quote above it

ie. how do you get that I may be

"confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use""?

where does that come from in what i said?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Tris:
Norfleet: If you were playing against an evil twin, who would destroy the world and everything you hold dear if he beat you, and you KNEW he would play the temple/castling strategy, how would you play to beat him?

I'd probably take the Vanheim Allfather, then. In single combat, assuming both are battle-tweaked, he's a superior fighter: His paths are cheaper, he shares many of the benefits, he is NOT as susceptible to the rush assault due to his starting mirror images, which in conjunction with his higher air ranks, provide him with a good stalling tactic, and because he is glamoured, he always operates under cover of strategic unaccountability if he goes for more than one turn without being sighted in battle.

Furthermore, Vanheim, as a nation able to perform blood sacrifices, can push dominion with enough force to roll back enemy dominion, has stealthy preachers, and as an air nation, is well equipped to counter SG Ermor's ethereal hordes, as Wrathful Sky is your friend here.

However, in practice, since I am also evil, my evil twin would see that I am a kindred spirit, and we would kill everyone else first.

Then I would let him win. I've always wanted to see the entire world destroyed. It's been a childhood dream of mine since I was a young boy. If it was within his power to grant me this wish, I would do everything within my power to make it happen.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by calmon:
Please understand. I like just a little modifications to her.

...and i'm bored to see Hall of Fames like that:


Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Lysindia.....Caelum..........233.........65
Evelyn.......Mictlan.........199.........45
Francisca....Abysia..........178.........46
Lady Dark....Emor............150.........42
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

Wait, Caelum's in the game? And Ermor?

You have the Hall of Fame all wrong, then.

It SHOULD look more like this:
Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Hooshang.....Caelum..........781.........65
Kavay....... Caelum..........699.........45
Frenay.......Caelum..........678.........46
Kavata.......Caelum..........521.........42
Lady Dark....Ermor...........150.........89
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

You obviously have not seen how quickly High Seraphs casting Wrathful Skies rack up the wanton and indiscriminate carnage that quicky eclipse even the VQs, most of which earn their kills during early expansion....and the sheer level of indiscriminate carnage that results when such spells are cast against Ermor is simply enormous. I've ended games with the entire HoF taken up by living and dead Seraphim with thousands of kills apiece.

The fact of the matter is that the hall of Fame is NOT always taken up by VQs: VQs, for all of their abilities, are actually poor killers: Their attack rarely kills their opponent in a single hit, they don't have many of them, and they tend to terrorize the indies off the field.

In fact, that's what most of their kills are, miserable indies. The only time they get human kills is when a human player is unlucky, stupid, or intentionally baiting, and throws an army into the path of a VQ.

The rest of the time, far more carnage is dished out, nearly all of it against actual opponents, by mages casting mass destruction spells.

[ May 07, 2004, 09:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
again, lol. i wasn't looking for a rehash of possible anti-VQ strategies. I don't really care about that anyways. the "how so" was directly in relation to the quote above it

ie. how do you get that I may be

"confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use""?

where does that come from in what i said?

Because if you are not confusing them, then why would the VQ be 'unbalanced'?

If you can make a Pretender that costs the same amount of points do what the VQ can do (though it may do it differently based on it and the VQ's inherent abilities) then either A.) That Pretender design is unbalanced (too) or B.) The VQ is not unbalanced because this other is not unbalanced.

If there are 2-4 other Pretenders, with the same possibility as that one Pretender then either all of those other Pretenders are unbalanced and need adjusted, or the VQ is in the upper tier of the balance triangle.

So, what I'm not seeing is: Either you do know that there are Pretenders that you can build that do exactly that, though perhaps in a different way. Or you do not know this. If you do know this (assuming) then the reason you feel the VQ is unbalanced is not because of it's inherent abilities or cost/use ratio, but because of it's popularity and ease of use. The fact that it's the same unit that can be mimiced across a swath of nations.

And if that is the case it is not a balanced decision, but one that is goaded by popularity and misinformation.

[Blitz]

So are you going to ignore the Natarajah, Carrion Dragon, All-Father, Ghost King, Prince of Death, Neried, Dagon, Saurolich, Son of Niefel, Void Lord?

All of these Chassis can be designed and equipped that will kill a VQ and have plenty of room to spare. Not to mention the ones you already mentioned.

I don't care about designed and equipped. stop thinking about game situations and just look at the facts people.


Vampire Queen

Flying, Erthreal, Stealth, Lifedrain, Immortality, Ally Summoning, Cold Resistance, Poison Resistance and Regeneration. 2 paths, one at level two. 110 points for the chassis.

Is the Nataraja a better chassis than the VQ? It's got four arms. This is better than immortality and the rest of the VQ's toys? Of course not. That's why it costs LESS than the VQ. Look at the ones that cost more. Is the Cyclops more or less attractive to you than a VQ?

Please stop with the amount you have to spend to get it to be a SC. This is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest. This is why different pretenders cost different prices. This is why the Allfather is 125 points and not zero.

So please, again. Give me ten pretender chassis that are better than the VQ. Explain the logic that dictates that a Titan or Shedu should cost more than a VQ. You cannot because it does not exist. Either a dozen or more pretenders are overpriced, or a few are underpriced. However you wish to define the situation, it exists and should be fixed.

Regardless of how you fix the problem, it's there. If you wish to solve it by reducing the prices of 25 pretenders or raising the price of one is irrelevant.

Perhaps you are all correct, and it's simply 90% of the field that is priced incorrectly. While you are correct that the ZERO point Nataraja is also good VALUE, and the 50 point Carrion Dragon is also good VALUE, you ignore that there are dozens of other chassis that are nearly worthless when a few are clearly more attractive to use.

[Tris]

> What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest.<

I disagree.

There can be a chassis that is worthless raw, which costs 100 points. If the intended way to use that chassis is to place another 100 points into it, shouldn't you compare the "cooked" Version of the chassis to other cooked Versions?

"Enchantress costs quite a few points, and is rubbish - she doesn't even have any magic paths, is weak small and human. A 0 point Manticore beats her every time" is a comparison of raw chassis, and is patently stupid.