VQ Counters - NO Debates

[IKerensky]

All thoses counter against VQ is nice but, cna I ask a question :

- What did your opponent do with your counter AND his VQ ?


Wich I mean someone suggest 3 Host for angels ( i.e CONJ 7 , 150 Astral gems and 5 Astral 5 caster ).

So in front of you you will have : 15 angels, 3 archangels AND the VQ ! I guess to evaluate the value of a counter you have to think that your opponent will have the same basic gear than you. We can even suppose you develop at the same speed, research at the same speed and gems at the same speed.

So in fact we are back to the real difference: your pretender vs his VQ, your nation vs his.

I am unsure VQ is so much over/under-valuated, what I think is that examinating counters isn't really going anywhere if you keep on devicing a way to kill the VQ, or the be more precise to kill one of THE VQs, as the problem people suggest is having 3-5 VQs in the same game.

I think we need to concentrate on strategies that could win the game AND be able to counter an ethereal immortal flying opponent.

Perhaps a list of things for each nation in fact.

Also it is clear the real thing that need to be countered is the rampant temple-castle dominion crush that support the VQ and seems to render it much more powerfull...

But this answer my first question as to where was gone all the ressources you used to counter it : they were burn in castle, temple and priest...

Also the VQ being a pretender it generate his own dominion, add her a sneaking flying prophet, with some tools and I have a hard time envisioning where she will fight out of his own dominion...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share

Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share

Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

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They are pricey... no way around that... and the most economically viable way to use them seems, ironically, to be spend more by summoning several Hosts... and keeping them together to increase their power.

But they're far from useless against the "non-undead"... that Awe(+4) that each angel has, is actually a pretty snazzy defense. Any normal morale unit stands a pretty high chance of not being able to attack the angel... I was suprised at how many "christmas lights" I saw in my merely basic tests.

Even with chaff issues... staking the VQ to a protective army already seems like a bit of a victory, because she no longer has the flight ability at her disposal... and thus is much more predictable. The Angelic Host caster, could similarly put chaff with his angels... though whether this would be a net gain is debatable.

To respond to your earlier point of:

If you want to make sure the angels get the right target, you may not want to just summondrop them on your target if there's a lot of clutter there: If you order them to attack fliers, on the other hand, they'll nearly always get their victim, because as the lone flier of the Ermorian horde, the VQ will be singled out for death by anyone told to attack fliers.

This is obviously a superior way to go in many ways. However, my idea was merely catching an overconfident VQ out causing turmoil by suprise...

The reality is, that non-Ermorian VQ's (there can be only one) are what most of us "non-expert" players will be facing in the coming months... I think this thread is useful mainly in dispensing with some of the fear/awe that a VQ has started to engender.

[Gandalf Parker]

you know you can edit something like the mini map to put agelic hosts in a provice, set the scales, assign a VQ with your choice of eq, and then start a game over and over. it gives everything but research. Come to think of it you can assign researched spells.

Or if I really wanted alot research I think Id use the superhost switch to leave the game running in a loop while I eat lunch

[alexti]

What will happen if you attack VQ with a couple of Golems (or similar units) equipped with eye shields? If they can blind her, they can probably kill her afterwards as well. Additional benefit is that it would take VQ few turns to recover from that even though she is immportal.

Another option is to send few flying/teleporting SCs who are ready to fight right away (without wasting time on any buffs). Preferrably el-cheapo SCs.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged?

Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.)

[Gateway103]

Regarding the Angelic Hosts, in my experience, they are fairly good against undead as well as living creatures (Harbinger's AOE 5 attack in principle should work well too, but 6 units is better than 1, at least for the price difference I think, research not factored in). However, I have found them to be most vulnerable right out of summoning, as you aren't able to script or give equipment to them.

So instead of using their Flambeaus, the Angels just sit in the back casting buff/blessing spells, and some offensive spells without much success (due to long range), while her 6 Hosts engage enemy ranks. This is fine for small enemy oppositions, but when facing larger crowds, the Hosts would likely die and/or retreat, as they aren't etheral or high def/prot, thus forcing the Angel to retreat too.

However, if you summon them in nearby provinces (free from attack and preferrably with a Lab), script them and equip them if you can, before sending them to battles, then the success rate and survival rate is much improved.

Of course, if you are trying to kill a SC, you don't need much script, since the goal is to catch them before they buff up. But equipment always help a bit. Afterall, if you are already investing a hefty price of 50 Astral Pearls into the summoning, why not make them more effective, and prolong their use as you would with Bane/Wraith Lord, and other summonable mini-SCs.

From my experience, with moderate equipment (Cons 4 stuff mostly) and some buffing, a lone Angel can function like mini-SCs similar to equipped Bane Lords, and in some ways better due to her magics and flying ability.

Just some observations,

-Gateway103

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

Really? It works even without having to actually take the capitol by storm? It's a lot easier than I thought, then, since then all you have to do is drop enough crap on the capitol to punch through any patrollers and PD.....

[archaeolept]

i've killed a VQ in the province outside the castle, only to fight her that same turn when my assault was resolved.

so i'm not completely sure what's up. I would have thought she always pops back, but caine seems to have experience to the contrary.

[ May 06, 2004, 03:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by alexti:
What will happen if you attack VQ with a couple of Golems (or similar units) equipped with eye shields? If they can blind her, they can probably kill her afterwards as well. Additional benefit is that it would take VQ few turns to recover from that even though she is immportal.

Another option is to send few flying/teleporting SCs who are ready to fight right away (without wasting time on any buffs). Preferrably el-cheapo SCs.

Early in the post I gave an example of fail safe unit that disposes of the VQ.

Golem with flying boots, flamnbeau, BS Helmut, red pearl, luck pend.

I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely.

What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations.