OT: The Passion of the Christ movie

[narf poit chez BOOM]

It sounds possible to me he was saying >racist, sexist< muslims should be taken action against. While I think this is counter-productive and wrong, perhaps he should be given the benifit of the doubt and the opportunity to explain.

[Quote edited by Moderator]

[ May 25, 2004, 11:30: Message edited by: Mephisto ]

[EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro]

Strange, the Dutch are usually the most tolerant people on earth. Still how do you respond to tolerant people letting intolerant people in your own country who despise you and want to kill you. You Europeans must have the patience of a saint. Letting in people who don't respect you and who don't want to integrate into your society.
Don't know what happened but history shows that the Muslims were very tolerant of other religions in the middle ages. It was our sword wielding Christian ancestors that were brutally nuts!

[Simeron]

Seems a really wierd place to discuss this but, its been that kind of week....

Personally, and let me say that again....

Personally....I see religion as a tool that can be used for good or evil. Religion always seems to end up doing more harm then good though to me.

Faith on the other hand is the exact opposite. Faith is a matter of belief and normally seems to end up helping out more then harming.

A persons faith is a matter of personal belief.

Religion is more the motions of the faith, the "Motius Operandi" more or less.

As long as the religion does not seek to impose its view/tenants/MO on people through force but by choice, then its fine. I may think its wrong but, that is my choice.

But when you get to the point of saying "if you don't follow our religion you will be punished" THEN I have a problem with it. Because you are now moving from the tenants of FAITH to a political system based on a belief.

You might cloak your politics in religious vestments but, its still POLITICAL and has NOTHING to do with faith.

How can I say that? Because faith has nothing to do with the machanics of religion, it is a personal belief and therefore, can not be forced, imposed or directed from outside in any way. Faith ALWAYS comes from within to the without.

Religion ALWAYS comes from without to the within.

So when you begin discussing religion, understand what you are actually doing is discussing politics and as the ancient saying goes...

"One sure way to end up in an arguement is discuss religion or politics."

No religion is perfect just as no political system is. But, the best you can do is find one that fits YOUR Faith/Belief and then try to stick with it.

When this makes it where you begin to try to impose your ways on others, then you have crossed the line from faith to religion. At that point, you have become the enemy of everyone including those of the faith you profess because you have now become a threat to others whereas before, you were no threat to others at all.

It is when people become a threat that action MUST be taken to remove that threat.

The question at that point is not IF you are going to do something, but What and When you are going to.

My PERSONAL belief is quite simple on this.

If they are not a threat...leave them to thier own ways and means. Keep an open dialog but, don't become the threat yourself.

If they ARE a threat...do whatever it takes to remove that threat so that it doesn't increase in size. Regardless of all other factors, first contain, then remove the threat.

An example of this from recent news, the killing of an innocent young man because criminals were not released.

Problem, the people that murdered this man will continue to do so in hopes these criminals are released.

Solution, you march 100 of these criminals out and execute them summarily with the message.

"We have freed 100 of those you wanted free...from thier lives. For each innocent you kill, 100 more of your comrades will be freed in a similar fashion until we run out of them. But we will be hunting you also so you too may one day be freed in similar fashion. To avoid further deaths of your comrades is quite simple. Do NOT kill innocents in an attempt to free them. Their lives are in YOUR hands."

Yes, that lowers us to thier level but, I assure you, being at thier level will make it where they fully understand that taking hostages and then killing them will not achieve thier goals. Once they know for sure that not only will they not achieve thier goals but in fact, it will have the exact OPPOSITE effect, they will seek other ways to achieve thier goals. Now, this may be a bad or a good thing...time will tell.

But to arbitrarily say "all" of any faith or religion is bad makes the person saying it far worse then the people they are talking about to me.

(Shrugs) But, I am a "war mongering" person I am told. I'm an old warrior and soldier true enough but, any old vet like me will tell you, we hope to never use our training and prefer nothing more then to fade away into the mists of time unused. I don't love war but, war will show you the best and worst in people like nothing else. It will end all discussions and debates like nothing else and it will come to an end eventually.

I have a simple philosophy about things like this. If it works, don't fix it.

War works. Fear works. Mankind is barbaric by nature but, we simply have to say, we won't be barbaric...today.

When people choose to be barbaric and wage war, answer them with all the savage barbarism and brutal warfare you can muster to strike fear into them and destroy thier ability to war. Try to limit your fury to those that deserve it but, if there are innocent casualties, sad as it is, accept them as the price of removing the threat. Fact is that while it is sad that innocents died in the fighting, if you didn't fight and end the ability of those that started the war in the first place, many more innocents would end up dead anyway.

People that don't deserve to die...die in war. Just like people that DO deserve to die do. This is why war should be the LAST resort and not the first. But when the time comes to go to war...go to war fully and with all the power you can muster so that when its over, you won't have to fight another one anytime soon.

If that makes me a warmonger...then so be it. I don't seek to impose my beliefs or views or even way of life on others. I don't seek to hunt down and kill people that just want to live thier lives in peace. But, for those that would force others to bow to them, I will seek them out and do my best to make it where they can't.

I figure that is the best thing I can do for the average person, give them a chance to make it or not on thier own.

Its all you can really ask in this life. A chance to live free and without shackles save those you choose to wear yourself.

[Atrocities]

Discussion and debate are healthy ways of communicating. It becomes unhealthy when we stop talking and start shooting one another.

I don't know about many of you, but for me it is the occational angry and heated debates that spice up the forum and keep me interested.

Honestly if we did not all share our own thoughts on a subject, thoughts from around the world, then how informed are we in the end?

I like to think that I am a better person in some respects because I know that I can come here and read poeples Posts who are from other parts of the world and share a differant view of world topics than I.

I count my self damn lucky to be a member in this forum with you people.

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Simeron:
As long as the religion does not seek to impose its view/tenants/MO on people through force but by choice, then its fine. I may think its wrong but, that is my choice.

Slight problem ... civilization is based upon some group imposing and enforcing some portion of their beliefs on others - else, on what basis can you hunt down a murderer? Sure, he's a murder by YOUR views (and perhaps the views of a very large number of people/large percentage of the population) but it is quite possible that in his views, it is quite reasonable to kill someone over what the rest of us would consider something minor. But if you hunt him down for it, you are effectively forcing your set of rules on him, no?

Originally posted by Simeron:
But when you get to the point of saying "if you don't follow our religion you will be punished" THEN I have a problem with it. Because you are now moving from the tenants of FAITH to a political system based on a belief.

All political systems are based on a belief of some sort - not necessarily in a diety of any kind, but in some belief - Capitalism is based on the belief that greed can be harnessed for the good of most; Socialism is based on the belief that people are responsible enough to work towards the common good without a "large" rewards system; Democracy is based on the belief that the masses can, on average, make good policy decisions; Despotism is based on the belief that one strong leader will run things best (although "best" is subject to interpertation - in many instances, that becomes "best ... for the despot").

Originally posted by Simeron:

You might cloak your politics in religious vestments but, its still POLITICAL and has NOTHING to do with faith.

That's true of many portions of politics, such as recource allocations, contract-enforcement strategies, road routes, economic planning, et cetera; I can't agree with it on such things as the definition of person for use in determining whether a given action is murder or not.

Originally posted by Simeron:

How can I say that? Because faith has nothing to do with the machanics of religion, it is a personal belief and therefore, can not be forced, imposed or directed from outside in any way. Faith ALWAYS comes from within to the without.

Religion ALWAYS comes from without to the within.

In which Category would you put ethics (e.g., the commandments "Thou Shalt Not Murder" and "Thou Shalt Not Steal")?

Originally posted by Simeron:
When this makes it where you begin to try to impose your ways on others, then you have crossed the line from faith to religion. At that point, you have become the enemy of everyone including those of the faith you profess because you have now become a threat to others whereas before, you were no threat to others at all.

It is when people become a threat that action MUST be taken to remove that threat.

And yet, you would impose a portion of your own views on others, which could be paraphrased as: "Don't impose your own views on others." That seems a little contradictory. But maybe that's just me.

[Atrocities]

So is this movie worth seeing or should we just wait until its on DVD and rent it?

[trooper]

That doesn't make much difference. This vocabulary is inappropriate here.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by Mephisto:
We at the SEIV forum have traveld the OT road before and with much more heat. All the people that went on this road are still here and still talking to one another so I see no need to cut this one road short.

"With much more heat" ?? That's possible??

And I have one request: I've noticed a couple of Posts have been edited by a moderator. Now, I didn't see them before they were edited, and I probably wouldn't have been offended even if I had read them. But I'd just like this to be a civilized conversation, so please don't post stuff that might be taken in an unintended way, or offensive subject matter. Like I said, it doesn't bother me, but it might bother some people.

As some other's would say, just my $0.02

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mephisto:
We at the SEIV forum have traveld the OT road before and with much more heat. All the people that went on this road are still here and still talking to one another so I see no need to cut this one road short.

"With much more heat" ?? That's possible??

---

Do a search on Iraq. You'll see what he's talking about then.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by TerranC:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade 13:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mephisto:
We at the SEIV forum have traveld the OT road before and with much more heat. All the people that went on this road are still here and still talking to one another so I see no need to cut this one road short.

"With much more heat" ?? That's possible??

---

Do a search on Iraq. You'll see what he's talking about then.

---

What has gone on in the past is up for change. Shrapnel is beginning to take an interest in the Boards. Everything has its pros and cons, including shrapnels interest.