MBT's

[Suhiir]

Well what I have is:

"The first Tank Battalion turned over it's M46s and M39s to the Armys 6th Tank Battalion on 17 March [1955] and embarked for Pendelton and a new issue of M48A1 tanks."

"The initial order of M48s in 1952 also reflected 28 of the eventual 74 flame-tank variants, the M67 (formerly T66) ..."

"The flame-tank development remains a singular case of Marine Corps tank procurement of a separate weapon within the Army material system. In November 1949 the Commandant advised the Army that he considered the Armys plans to develop a trailer-type flame-tank unsatisfactory."

"The 421 medium M48A1 tanks would enter the M48A3 overhaul program in December 1962 at a rate of 25 per month, and the Anniston and Red River Army Depots also upgraded the 73 M67A1s [1268 liters of flame fuel] to M67A2 [1457 liters of flame fuel] at the rate of 5 per month."

"USMC inventory M48A3 1967 - Authorized 457 - Possessed 409"

No place in his book is the M48A2 mentioned, but I'll look into it.

[Suhiir]

Other then Mr Lloyd G. Reynolds and some model kits I can't find a single reference to an M48A2 in the USMC. Tho it's possible some of the M48A1s may have actually been M48A2s as they're essentially identical:

"This version, first accepted in 1956, first had and improved powerpack and transmission (a fuel-injected version of Continental’s V-12)
Second, a redesigned rear plate with exhaust louvres, and side hull intake grilles surrounded a solid center area overtop of the exhaust tunnel, greatly improving the infared signature. The more compact design inside the engine compartment allowed to fit bigger capacity fuel tanks, for 335 US gallons (1270L), giving an approximative range of 160 miles or 260 km. Moreover the A2 had a an improved turret control, and relocated engine\’s air cleaners for better access and maintenance. The suspensions also were modified, with a modified compensating idler wheel attachment, double bump spring on the first road wheel arm, and friction snubbers instead of the hydraulic shock absorbers. The second and fourth track return rollers were deleted. The driver\’s steering wheel was enlarged, and the transmission shifter was relocated to the floor on the driver\’s right. It had also a modified personnel heater exhaust pipe, an improved turret control system, and flattened fenders."

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Some of you will note I've done this before, I've sent out a couple of emails to Vietnam era CORPS tanker websites concerning the M-48A2. Below is a ref. I found that shows the Military Museum of Southern New England, Danbury CT. has a M-48A2C (This model primarily equipped with a more efficient main gun.) with distinctive USMC markings on it as shown in the pictures. I doing a further search into the tanks shown here and in my previous post as pictured too see if the serial numbers "hit" on the internet somewhere.
http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=2379

I love a challenge.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

I love a challenge.

Keeps life interesting.

In theory starting in 1962 all USMC M48s were starting an upgrade to A3s, by the time they hit Vietnam in 1965 they probably should have mostly been A3s.
The other possibility would be that the 3rd Tank Bn being located in Okinawa would be last on the upgrade list and some deal was cut with the Army that resulted in the USMC trading un-upgraded M48A1s for Army M48A2Cs which were then fielded until they could be upgraded to A3s.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I think the more proper I now believe USMC M-48A2C was the tank that bridged the gap to the M-48A3 (To include the ARMY.) which needed to be done. The M-48A2/A2C was used by both services it appears with the A2C having improved the main gun capabilities with other improvements over the M-48A1/A2. What seems to have been one of the major factors in further development to the M-48A3 was that both services wanted to get away from the gasoline engines they were using up to that time for many reasons to chiefly include overall safety, fuel economy and reliability. But one thing I'm seeing constantly though when looking at the Amazon/Google online book excerpts that are offered is that I'm reading ...the U.S. Army and Marines... when discussing the M-48A2 it would seem the tank sort of "fell through the cracks" but at the same time is still there. I'm getting rough dates from about 1957-1959 until 1962-1963 for the M-48A2. But for the record my focus is strictly is on verification of use and not dates at this time. If you verify that the rest will fall into place, unless again you're dealing with the French 105mm which as you can see will always be a thorn in my side, and I'll never get those years/research hours back again.

But to be clear I don't see this issue related to my "historically being accurate" and other argument I made for getting the M-60A1 RISE PASSIVE entered into the game for the ARMY from Page 8/POST #73 of this thread as I submitted in 2010. For a more detailed explanation and why this thread is if you will "off limits" is to allow for Don and I to hash these issues out in a more focused manner see The FASTBOAT Patch page thread Pages #1-#2. You'll also see the "baby steps" I was taking at the time but I was thankful for the help I got from Don and AMX to get me through those then embarrassing but now funny moments.

The M-48A2/A2C is as different overall from the M-48A1 as the M-48A3 is to both of the previous mods.

I'm just waiting to hear back as indicated previously.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Here's a very quick update concerning the USMC use of the M-48A2...

1) It seems the only verifiable tank (non-flame tank) the USMC used in Vietnam was the M-48A3.

2) As Suhiir noted, the USMC did receive their tanks from the ARMY, in this case from retired stock as the ARMY transitioned from the M-48 series to the M-60 series.
Note: The M-48A1 were new stock tanks received jointly with the ARMY off the production line.

3) Confirmed (And have re-posted the picture below.) that Lt.Col. George Saussy (Jr.) first does exist and was in command of the 3rd Tank Battalion, 3rd MarDiv. USMC from 12 Aug. 1960 until 8 Jul. 1961. This seems to validate his picture as previously posted.
https://books.google.com/books?id=xq...20USMC&f=false



4) Have heard back on my inquiry. But my question wasn't answered. I will post the full email when I've received and exhausted that source, as also already posted.

5) Issue I see is a potential that the wrong tanks might be represented with the Vietnam War Campaign and possibly some related scenarios as well, as noted in 1) above. The ARMY however did have some M-48A2/A2C tanks in country early on, but like the USMC no M-48A1 tanks served there.

Though as I had mentioned in 5) above, my true concern again is to verify the use of the M-48A2/A2C or both by the USMC only.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

I've found nothing to indicate that the USMC used anything but M48A3/M67A2 in Vietnam proper. It's probable some M48A1s were still in service, especially with the reserve 4th Tank Bn., back in the CONUS.

The real question, for my part, is ... did the USMC ever use significant number of M48A2Cs? They may well have had some, but if the lions share were A1s or A3s I don't feel adding the A2C is worthwhile. Much the same way the USMC did in fact possess 10 x M24s but such a small number isn't worth including in the OOB.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Huge difference between the M-48A1 and M-48A2C here's an excerpt from my first response to my email inquiry...
"The A-1 was a gasoline powered vehicle. The USMC did not have them in-country. In July of 1968, the Army did use some A-1's for a short time. They found out that too many mines caused too many explosions and they moved to the A-3." - Greg Martin

If the ARMY still used them (The A1.) you know the USMC still did also through 1968. The M-48A1 was very venerable to mines as the underbelly around the fuel tank wasn't heavily armored. They were fire death traps much in the way I believe if memory serves the T-62 was.

If it's found the USMC had the M-48A2 and M-48A2C given the option I'd just enter the M-48A2C. And we've had and suspect still to a lesser degree, some limited number units in the game. The Sukhoi S-37 Berkut comes to mind that was finally removed from the Russian OOB within the last 2-3+ years. Best estimates put it at 3 to 5 examples built.
http://www.military-today.com/aircra...s37_berkut.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/s37/

I might up the ante later this morning and reach out for some help from the PAO office of the following unit...
http://www.1stmardiv.marines.mil/Uni...N/Contact.aspx

I see it starting along the lines of "Good Morning, Sir I'm...
I was wondering if you can help me find...Yes I'm a Retired Submariner...Line goes goes mysteriously dead...Well it might need some polishing, besides I'd hate the thought of the PAO coughing out or spilling coffee on their nice clean uniform yeah maybe not so much after all!?!

Good Ni...or whatever it is as long as it means sleep for me.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Results of phone call #1 to 2nd Tank Battalion, 2nd MARDIV at Camp Lejeune, NC...
http://www.2ndmardiv.marines.mil/Units/2ndTankBN.aspx

"Good morning sir,

We spoke on the phone about the M48A2 tank and I did some research for you. The following is a link that should help you. This website is not USMC official, but it does seem credible.

http://mcvthf.org/History/Evolution_of_Marine_Tanks.html

Respectfully,
Lance Cpl. Damarko Bones
II MEF PAO
(910) 449-8592"

Well if the link looks familiar it should, It's the one I originally posted. He did also verify the picture as authentic from my last post as well and that he was the CO of the unit at the time it was taken. No hesitation on the part of LCpl. Bones in pulling up this site either, it must be in their "favorites" or some such for ready access. We were done in about five minutes.

I'm currently awaiting a response from S-3 Operations to the same question on left on their voice mail (Weird the PAO didn't have voice mail) from 1st Tank Battalion, 1st MARDIV at 29 Palms, CA.
http://www.1stmardiv.marines.mil/Units/1STTANKBN.aspx

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

I haven't heard back from Ken Estes yet but did find this:
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index...41155&hl=m48a2

"I think you forgot some of our conversations, Ray. The USMC was all M48A3 by 1964. It was the army that ran out of them and deployed the A2s to VN for awhile."

"On page 393 of Hunnicutt's Patton, there is a photo of an A2C, belonging to "1st Battalion, 5th Mechanized Division" [???] engaged in Operation Fisher, 6Jan69."

"Mike Green's Armored Warfare in the Vietnam War mentions "a number of M48A2Cs" deployed to Vietnam by the army in 1967 and 1968. [page 14]"

"P96 of Simon Dunston's Vietnam Tracks has a pic of an 11th Cav A2C, very pimped out. Page 90 has distant pic of A2C with 4/12th Cav, along with language suggesting army tank losses brought the A2Cs to Vietnam...."

"Once the war was in full tilt, it was probably difficult for the army to gear up. For the USMC the 421 medium M48A1 tanks would enter the M48A3 overhaul program in December 1962 at the rate of 25 per month, and the Anniston and Red River Army Depots also upgraded the 73 M67A1 to M67A2 at five per month. The 160 M103 heavies [of 218 on hand] cycled through their rebuild beginning in August, 1963 at the rate of 25 per month. I'd say the army was caught unprepared when MACV decided that tanks would be sent to RVN after all. The USMC sent theirs in right away with each brigade or division, but juxtaposed, it meant there was no army support for tanks in VN for the first year+. Our gear on Okinawa was always a bit poor, because it existed at the end of a very long and ineffective USMC supply & maint system chain. Our M48A3s ran out of road wheels in the 30 days according to most people I knew who were early deployers; track shortages followed soon and then all the rest. Of course by 60 days, the USMC ground forces became dependent upon the army CommZ or equivalent in theater. With no army tanks yet in theater, it became horrific, was already so for the poor M-50 Ontos and amtracs. These had never been provisioned properly in the USMC since inserv."

"Later, the USMC transferred all their A3s [originally acquired as M48 and M48A1] to the army for its A5 program. Our payback came when we received 50 and 132 M1A1s in FY94 and 95 from the army [48 common heavy armor, rest 7th year]"