Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by kianduatha

To a fairly great degree, those issues have been addressed--fairly massive price increases for their recruitable thug chassis(most notably so you can't purchase an Adon 1st turn) takes away some of their early momentum. Also the inclusion of the Hero's Blade gives an excellent counter to low numbers of elite giants.

How many MP games have even been played with Ashdod since 1.6 came out?

I don't think hero's blade does anything to counter Adonim. Last time I looked at a giant (admitedly a Hinnom one), I just decided that hero's blade wasn't worth it because I had noone who had a chance of surviving one blow from the giant, so he wouldn't ever hit him. Humans have a hard time against such giants. The gold increase reduces the number of adonim, but just look at a zamzummite, and you'll realise adonim are not the only issue with Ashdod. First time I met zamzummites, I thought they were capital only because they are so good. Nope.

[Sombre]

Actually most of the Hinnom/Ashdod rebalances make sense on an individual unit/spell level, not just on the nation balance plane.

Dawn Guard (or Dawg Guard as I like to call them) for example, were eclipsing everything else, while having too strong a starting army messed with the utility of awake pretenders and bless expansion.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't think hero's blade does anything to counter Adonim. Last time I looked at a giant (admitedly a Hinnom one), I just decided that hero's blade wasn't worth it because I had noone who had a chance of surviving one blow from the giant, so he wouldn't ever hit him. Humans have a hard time against such giants. The gold increase reduces the number of adonim, but just look at a zamzummite, and you'll realise adonim are not the only issue with Ashdod. First time I met zamzummites, I thought they were capital only because they are so good. Nope.

With high defense and mirror image, you might not get hit, and if he's using a brand you should ensure you've got 100% immunity to that element. Mistform will protect against a single hit, and luck helps.

The glamour horsemen are good candidates. If your nation has W2 mages, you should buff with Quickness,

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

I don't think hero's blade does anything to counter Adonim. Last time I looked at a giant (admitedly a Hinnom one), I just decided that hero's blade wasn't worth it because I had noone who had a chance of surviving one blow from the giant, so he wouldn't ever hit him. Humans have a hard time against such giants. The gold increase reduces the number of adonim, but just look at a zamzummite, and you'll realise adonim are not the only issue with Ashdod. First time I met zamzummites, I thought they were capital only because they are so good. Nope.

It isn't just humans who benefit from a hero's blade while fighting adonim. There are at least a few things smaller than an adon that I can think of that should be able to survive a round or two with an adon, though admittedly they are not always super accessible. The glamour nations stick out as a group that should find it quite reasonable to use hero blades to chop down giants. Provided they can actually get the swords to do it.

Edit: Ninja'd by VFB, whose post was just better.

[Sombre]

You also don't necessarily need to survive a hit - you can try and make sure you hit first via flight, quickness, high AP thug etc. With high strength and a hero blade, you shouldn't need to hit more than once.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Sombre

...while having too strong a starting army messed with the utility of awake pretenders and bless expansion.

Ok, that's bull, and I'm pretty sure you know it. No giant nation is ever going to take an awake pretender unless its units are unplayably bad.

More generally, not every nation is or should be tempted by sacreds and/or awake pretenders, and its ridiculous to think its even possible to achieve such a state.

Further, that QM chose to make certain options more expensive rather than make the alternatives cheaper is indicative of what he thought of the nation vs. nation balance created by those choices.

[Sombre]

I don't follow your logic. If one choice in a recruitable lineup is flat out superior to the others, qm has on numerous occasions hiked the price on the standout, or reduced its overall upside. See jomonese longbows. Unless you think he was trying to balance the awesome power of Jomon?

Obviously changes to Hinnom, Vanheim and Mictlan considered nation balance. But they were also about making the nation more varied within itself, in terms of strategic choices. If you have a sick, sick starting army compared with every other nation, it messes with nation balance, it's aesthetically weird and it also limits competitive strat choices.

Re: Giant nations and awake pretenders - There's also nothing inherent in giant nations that would make an awake pretender ridiculous. The reason it might be a bad choice is incidental to the characteristics of giants (recruitable thug commanders, high hp units, high str units, large size). It comes down to other attributes like having great expansion units, having units which thrive on a huge bless or not needing a rainbow to sitesearch early. Taking an awake pretender with Fomoria or Gath seems like a legit choice to me.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Sombre

I don't follow your logic. If one choice in a recruitable lineup is flat out superior to the others, qm has on numerous occasions hiked the price on the standout, or reduced its overall upside. See jomonese longbows. Unless you think he was trying to balance the awesome power of Jomon?

Well, I don't understand that particular example at all. Samurai archers weren't very good before they were inexplicably nerfed by QM, and are totally unplayable now. I can't imagine anyone actually hiring them even in vanilla.

So if that example is supposed to support your point, it failed pretty badly.

[Trumanator]

Before the nerf they were considered the only good thing about Jomon. I don't really agree, but that's why they were nerfed. This was also quite a ways back when Jomon was even weaker.

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by Sombre

You also don't necessarily need to survive a hit - you can try and make sure you hit first via flight, quickness, high AP thug etc. With high strength and a hero blade, you shouldn't need to hit more than once.

And regarding other comments: Yes, sure. If you can avoid being hit, don't you think the adon can, too? One in three will cast luck to begin with. Others will wear 2 bracers of protection for +4 defense, etc. If you can build a hero's blade, what kind of + defense gear do you think they can build (should mention their forge bonus mages here)? That weapon isn't a worthwhile counter in my opinion, because when the adonim are an issue (from turn 2), most nations have absolutely nothing to put in front. Last time I tested a CBM1.6 Ashdod vs. Mictlan, Ashdod just walked over Mictlan. Vanheim might be able to kit a van with a hero's blade, but I can't see any other MA nation that could do something (well, maybe Eriu actually).
I'd rather nerf adonim into a (level 0?) summon with a cost such that they can't get out before a few turns than hope that hero's blades will make a difference against them.