Updates in light of Ukraine war

[DRG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3o_1mVl7G4

The battle of Irpin: Meeting the Ukrainian resistance • FRANCE 24 English

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by FOARP

Active protection systems (e.g., Shtora) DO NOT WORK, or at least there are no reports of any of them stopping even a single Stugna-P, Javelin, or other anti-tank weapon. Why this is is hard to say - could be poor Russian maintenance but Ukrainian tanks also seem to be suffering the same thing.

APS can't work if APS isn't installed.

To this date, there is one (1) confirmed Russian tank with Hard-APS (aka projectiles hitting incoming munitions) destroyed (the lone T-80UM prototype).

Everything else the Russians have is Passive-APS (Shtora) which relies on IR dazzlers mounted on the front of the turret. You can't dazzle an ATGM launch from the side if your turret isn't pointed at it.

ERA is also a lot less effective in reality than it is in this game, at least not against tandem warheads or top-attack weapons.

We're seeing bias here -- we only see the "sexy" hit tank it blew up videos, not videos of tanks taking hit after hit and not blowing up.

there is little evidence that the armour of these tanks is very effective against even close-range auto-cannon fire (cf a Ukrainian BTR-4 taking out a Russian T72B3M from the side with its 30mm cannon in Mariupol).

You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

You realize that is a "Stuart with 37mm taking out a Tiger with a one in a million shot via jamming turret ring" issue? Like literally; the BTR-4 gunner got lucky at point blank range, which enabled him to aim for the thin read side armor in just about every tank that's existed since logical armoring began?

The game already accommodates that via "critical penetration" chance.

The problem with all of these videos is we are only being shown what "they" want us to see. That tank did have reactive side plates which I showed earlier and when the BTR fired they reacted and then there was fire but that's the area the sponson fuel tanks are and then the video ended.

That tank was also missing its cage armour at the rear

Point blank fire with a 30mm autocannon, exploding reactive plates, burning fuel then ....

CUT! thats a wrap.

We know N O T H I N G about what happened next.... NOTHING


EVERYONE needs to watch this at least once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

[MarkSheppard]

From this, you have to be at point blank range with a rapid fire autocannon to be able to kill a T-72/T-90 with it.

(The T-90 is actually a rebadged T-72 with a new turret in later marks).

Essentially, as DRG found out:

the armour of the side of the hull is 80mm thick. The armour on the sides of the engine compartment is 70mm thick.

War Thunder (I know, I know); lists the 30mm 2A42 Autocannon as having at 100m the following penetration:

HE/AP: 63~mm
APDS: 81~mm

The penetration of HE/AP is deep enough that there would be scabbing off the inside of the armor; especially in the rear 70mm thick armor around the engine.

So you can see that in order for a BMP-3/BTR-4 to stand a chance of defeating a T-72/90; the following must occur:

1.) It must be within 100m or less.
2.) The enemy T-72/90 must not have side skirt armor (or be missing pieces of it).
3.) The gunner has to recognize the missing side armor as a weak spot.
4.) The gunner then has to place 20~ rounds into that area.

That's a lot of conditionals that have to occur for a "one in a million" shot.

People need to remember the scope of Steel Panthers -- it's not a "down in the weeds semi accurate penetration simulator" like War Thunder is; but more of an abstraction of armored fighting; i.e. the game already abstractly accounts for weak spots; just load MBT_APCalc and look at Russian Weapon 77 - 30mm 2A42 A/C:

100m Range:
AP: 6 typical penetration, 7 best possible penetration
Sabot 8 typical penetration, 11 best possible penetration

[DRG]

If you see this





it has Arena...... if you don't see it, it doesn't

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod...f?resize=980:*

[MarkSheppard]

Continuing my own thread of thought:

Look in MOBHack, Russian OBAT:

Unit 031 T-72 -- 9 Side, 6 rear Steel armor for hull (c.1975)
Unit 035 T-72B -- 13 Side, 8 rear Steel Armor for hull (c.1985)

You can see how the game is trying to abstractly simulate the differences between a 1975 T-72 with no side armor schurzen and the later 1985 model T-72 with side armor schurzen + ERA.

Because remember, Schurzen still helps; even in the year 2000+ against APDS rounds, because a solid Schurzen plate is typically 1cm thick, and can induce yaw onto an incoming projectile; causing it to fail after passing through.

I think a lot of misunderstanding is occurring due to games like War Thunder -- it's done a lot to help the AFV community, but it's also hurt in some ways.

This is because War Thunder can hyper model individual armor plate thicknesses across an entire 3D model, whereas games like Steel Panthers have to take an entire aspect (frontal, side, rear) and abstract it down to a single number that then represents that entire aspect; while in War Thunder, you can aim for weak spots (i.e. no ERA or schurzen protection) and see that represented in real time.

[MarkSheppard]

Another aspect people are missing is that this mass ATGM/MANPAD spam is...abnormal.

Thousands of MANPADs and ATGMs have flooded into Ukraine; while the Ukrainians have asked (per CNN) for 500~ Javelin and 500~ Stingers...PER DAY.

To put that all into context, in 2014 Finland spent EUR 90 million (about $123 million) for the FIM-92 RMP Block I Stinger to replace their existing pile of Soviet era MANPADs.

The original contract "Wish List" was $330 million for 600 RMP Block I Stingers, 110 Firing Units, and 110 night vision sights.

So we can guesstimate that Finland actually bought only about:

200 x Stinger RMP Blk I
40 x Firing Units + IR Sights

That's not a lot for a modern battlefield; especially if you might use 3 or more Stingers in an ambush pocket -- one guy fires a Stinger at a Ka-52 Alligator; the pilot sees it and flares go out and it evades....

...only to find out that the Ukrainians have carefully positioned several more stingers to the sides of the main shooter; so that no matter which way the helicopter evades, it's turning towards a Stinger Shooter.

[DRG]

There is one interesting addition this year.......

[Wdll]

Originally Posted by DRG

There is one interesting addition this year.......

Is that the child of the Batplane and the SR-71?

[DRG]

Switchblade drone
https://www.popsci.com/technology/sw...nes-explained/
https://www.avinc.com/tms/switchblade

Supporting conventional or special operations forces in the field or from fixed defensive positions, the combat-proven Switchblade 300 with patented wave-off feature is the ideal loitering missile for use against beyond-line-of-sight targets. Backpackable and rapidly deployable from air, sea or ground platforms, Switchblade 300 delivers increased warfighter lethality with real-time GPS coordinates and video for precise targeting with low collateral effects.

It uses the NLOS weapons class and has special targeting instructions that are included with the units that have it which is one in the US OOB, one in the Ukrainian OOB and one in the UK OOB ( UK starting 2023)

Only a HQ , dedicated forward observer or light helicopter can target using NLOS and that unit must be able to see the target.*
*
To target an NLOS unit first press the " I " key with the spotter unit and you will see a list of the NLOS firing units available on the Right. You can click on any of the listed NLOS units to select it as the current firing unit. Once you have the firing unit unit you want you can click on a target on the map or use the ' N(ext) ' or 'P(revious)' keys to go to the next or previous target. Once you have your target and firer pair as you wish it, then press the ' F ' key to fire the unit and the firing sequence will begin. NLOS units that have used their shots for that turn will disappear from the list of available units*

it's not a perfect adaptation of the weapon but it's "close enough" it has a WH similar to a 40mm GL