Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[blazejos]

Hello

When you talking about modification of Polish OOB I just tough about my file with I done around 2 years ago is more an encyclopedic than playable file so I try separate units and formations in chronological order. Generally I include there everything what I found about polish pre-war army until 1939 for example proposed 75mm AA gun which was discussed by PIBWL .There are also now correct icons of polish riverine ships (yes correct icons was included inside shp in previous release so is even not necessary to add shp files). I try to modelled also polish underground army from 11/39 through creation of the AK to anticommunists organisations post disband of AK 10/44. Polish army in France first infantry units created in September 39 (only for human) to June 1940 with R-40 tanks which also was discussed. Formation for Polish Army in France was copied from French OOB. I never finish part about Polish army in UK lost motivation. Formations are done based on page about polish structures mentioned in previous posts so are as close modelled as I can but I assume that are not exactly correct for game engine and are named in polish comparable to German OOB with German names of formations. Hope that PIBWL will be able take some inspiration about already included icons and units and formations which may be possible to add to polish OOB from that file and rewrite this into specification for changes in official OOB for next version. This OOB now fit inside an blue OOB so is easy to check formations inside game.

Blazejos

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

Actually they were probably 75/27 M.906 or M.911 WW1 vintage field guns, which were much more common than the new 75/32 during the whole war, but especially in 1940-1941. Too bad the current Italian OOB does not have them at all as field artillery pieces, since they were only the most common artillery pieces in Italian service (...)

Thanks for a comment. With 25pdrs and captured material, the Carpathian Light Artillery Regiment in Tobruk grew to 52 guns, but unfortunately, no one writes (and probably no one will know), what these guns were. They had to be left in Tobruk by the Italians in 1940. Curiously, there are photos, reportedly from Tobruk, of Polish soldiers manning German Pak-38 and probably ex-Soviet M.1936 F-22USV (and Australians manning Pak-38 as well), but I guess, that German guns shouldn't be available there in 1941. Maybe they are from a later date.

As for 75/27 in Italian oob - it is another story, but now there is unit 030 Obice da 75L25. I can't find such gun, so probably it should be just 75/27.

PS. I've just "discovered", that picture 127 is 75/32 modello 37. Then, what gun is on picture 301, multiplied in many sources as Italian field gun?.. Mountain 75/18 modello 35?

Michal

[Pibwl]

Self answer - I've found in Hogg's book, that picture 301, used for field guns since SP-1, is indeed described as 75/18 modello 35. An Italian oob will need separate thread.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

Thanks for a comment. With 25pdrs and captured material, the Carpathian Light Artillery Regiment in Tobruk grew to 52 guns, but unfortunately, no one writes (and probably no one will know), what these guns were. They had to be left in Tobruk by the Italians in 1940. Curiously, there are photos, reportedly from Tobruk, of Polish soldiers manning German Pak-38 and probably ex-Soviet M.1936 F-22USV (and Australians manning Pak-38 as well), but I guess, that German guns shouldn't be available there in 1941. Maybe they are from a later date.

As for 75/27 in Italian oob - it is another story, but now there is unit 030 Obice da 75L25. I can't find such gun, so probably it should be just 75/27.

Michal

Of course in reality there were two different 75/27 models: the Krupp-designed 906 (or just 06) gun and the 911 (11). The latter was the famous Déport gun, the first production field gun with a split trail. The ballistic properties of those guns were relatively similar after the Italians modified the 06 for higher elevations. The image 36901 does not seem to be neither one of those guns and frankly I don't know what it is.

As for the PaK38 in Tobruk: the Italians did order PaK38 AT guns from Germany in summer 1940, but to my knowledge they were delivered only in 1942, because the Germans could not spare them earlier. The DAK of course had them, but presumably not the Italians. Then again, there is a lot of murky corners in Italian WW2 weapons history, especially if one does not have access to printed Italian language sources. Since year 2000 there has been great books published in English about Italian tanks and other vehicles, but artillery is a less popular subject with less sources available.

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by blazejos

There are also now correct icons of polish riverine ships (yes correct icons was included inside shp in previous release so is even not necessary to add shp files).

Correct icons are great news

So, units 510-511 Krakow (and Wilno if we create it) should be given icon 3488; units 512 to 523 - icon 3487; unit 538 - icon 3489.

Also unit 548 Taczanka should be given more appropriate icon 3492

Other supplements for previous comments:
400 37mm AT-Gun - its weapon #13 37mm wz.36 L45 has worse performance, than identical tank gun #15 37mm wz.37 L45, without a reason. They should be the same, with penetration 5 at least (as I've mentioned before, their performance might justify increasing penetration to 6 IMO - for all countries. Their performance figures are rarely given, but they are generally better, than PaK-35/36 - see eg. Jaeger platoon http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS1.htm ).


There might be created a formation available in 9/39 only: 'Dubno' Half-Co (a "half-company" of Dubno group), with one platoon of 3 R-35 and one platoon of 3 H-38(H-35). A commander would be given 368 Polski Fiat 508.


Next comments:

561, 562 Wz.28 (available in 9/39) - they should be given other class, so that they can't be chosen in armoured car squadrons (there were only 3 left in 1939). Maybe 230 Colonial AC, with an appropriate platoon (named eg. just "Wz.28 platoon").

Probably in 1939 there only remained MG-armed version, but this is my educated assumption (all but 3 cars had been converted to wz.34, so probably all gun-armed cars were converted). In any case there could remain no more, than one gun-armed.

Name could be changed to Wz.28 Citroen (they were sometimes known as Citroens, also in documents, due to Citroen-Kegresse chassis). This name was in fact also used sometimes for wz.34 car, but not in any modern publications.

563, 564 Peugot M1918 - they were used by the Army until 1935 at least (http://derela.republika.pl/peugeot.htm) (now 12/31)
Photo 29490 of unit 564 actually is MG-armed car - correct is 29488.

These cars were actually known just as Peugeots, and their proper designation is unknown (they were wartime models, so often used "1918" is not correct, and wasn't official in Poland). Maybe MG-armed one should be named Peugeot AM, and gun-armed Peugeot AC, according to French nomenclature? Or gun-armed one should be named Peugeot (37mm)


567 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Better action photo for MG-armed version is 29490

573 Peugot M1918 - name as above. Crew was 4(5).

568 Wz.28 - Could be used until 12/36 at least, like units 664-665 (12/34). Name as 561.

663 Wz.28 - as above.

664, 665 Wz.28 I - there was no such designation - we may call it Wz.28 (late). I'll try to find better pictures. There's no reason for 665 to have rangefinder.
Light sloping of rear 8 mm plate does not justify armour=2 IMO. In fact, all wz.28 cars had similarly thin armour at front (now 2).

.

[Pibwl]

I'm attaching several improved or proposed pictures.

(An attached Autoblinda AB-41 is Polish indeed.)

[Pibwl]

Photos of 37mm mle.16 and 65mm mle.06 guns can be as well used in other countries.

Originally Posted by Pibwl

561, 562 Wz.28 (available in 9/39) - they should be given other class, so that they can't be chosen in armoured car squadrons (there were only 3 left in 1939). Maybe 230 Colonial AC, with an appropriate platoon (named eg. just "Wz.28 platoon").

Probably in 1939 there only remained MG-armed version, but this is my educated assumption (all but 3 cars had been converted to wz.34, so probably all gun-armed cars were converted). In any case there could remain no more, than one gun-armed.

Actually, I'm quite convinced, that no gun-armed wz.28 cars survived until 1939, and so unit 562 can be removed.
There were initially only "about 30" gun cars, and 37mm guns weren't as freely available, as wz.25 MGs. In 1939 there should be exactly 30 gun-armed wz.34 cars in mobilized formations, so most probably all gun cars were converted to wz.34.

On the other hand, unit 561, with a separate class and platoon, should can start at 1/37, right after units 664-665.

You can read more at http://derela.republika.pl/wz28.htm

[Pibwl]

As for captured Italian guns, they might have been 100/17 howitzers, which seem popular at that time in North Africa.

To finish with 1939 armoured cars:

569 Wz.29 Ursus - they were built and given to the Army in 7/31 (now 1/30).
Speed could be 12 (35 km/h - now 11) - same for units 574, 671.

Armament of all wz.29 cars should be IMO reduced to gun and one TMG only.
The car officially had three MGs in the beginning, but a BMG was rear-facing, what made it useful in peculiar combat situations only.
The remaining three weapons (gun, TMG and AAMG) were manned by a commander and mounted in different sides of a turret, what made quick change of weapon difficult. As for AAMG in an upper ball mounting, it was inefficient, and quickly removed (more: http://derela.republika.pl/wz29.htm)
The first unit 569 could have AAMG instead of TMG, because it had some chance of downing a slower aircraft of that era. In next units it should be TMG.

I'll attach alternative pictures.


570-572 Wz.34, Wz.34 I, Wz.34 II (variants with MG and early camo) - in my opinion, distinguishing between these models doesn't make much sense. They mark only mechanical components, weren't usually used, and can't be associated with either of two types of armoured hull (more: http://derela.republika.pl/wz34.htm).
Wz.34 I is completely redundant - no external difference, nor in specifications, not distinguished from wz.34 II in official statistics.
Wz.34 II was newest model, but according to a military manual, it was in fact a bit slower (50 km/h) than wz.34 (54 km/h) (now wz.34 II has 18, rest - 16). IMO, its speed should be 17 (=51 km/h). It could be merged with wz.34 and named just "wz.34", or we could keep both, one with a picture with old hull (vertical rear) and one with newer hull (slanted rear).

BTW: the picture 29521 of #571 has late camo, while it's supposed to have old camo.


575-577 Wz.34a, Wz.34 Ia, Wz.34 IIa - as above (variant with 37mm gun and late camo). There was no designation with "a" for a variant with 37mm gun (or any other special designation). It might be named "Wz.34 (37mm)"

674-676 Wz.34a, Wz.34 Ia, Wz.34 IIa - as above (variant with 37mm gun and early camo).
Picture 29519 shows cars in late camo, while it is supposed to be early camo. I'll attach a photo of the car with gun and early camo.

678-680 Wz.34, Wz.34 I, Wz.34 II - as above (variant with MG and late camo).
If we'd like a photo, a proper one is in fact 29521 (used for early unit 571)

Michal

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

As for captured Italian guns, they might have been 100/17 howitzers, which seem popular at that time in North Africa.

To finish with 1939 armoured cars:

569 Wz.29 Ursus - they were built and given to the Army in 7/31 (now 1/30).
Speed could be 12 (35 km/h - now 11) - same for units 574, 671.

Armament of all wz.29 cars should be IMO reduced to gun and one TMG only.
The car officially had three MGs in the beginning, but a BMG was rear-facing, what made it useful in peculiar combat situations only.
Michal

The 100/17 was the standard divisional howitzer of the Regio Esercito since the 1920's. The Italians received a very large number of them as war reparations from former Austro-Hungarian countries and some were captured already during the war. They also made spare parts (including barrels) for them and during WW2 a number were possibly upgraded to longer L/22 barrel (at least ex-Polish 100/22 were used, but the information on the upgrade is inconclusive). So, it was common pretty much everywhere the Italians fought, so indeed it is quite likely that many were captured in North Africa by Allies.

The 100/17 was a little short-ranged by WW2 standards, but otherwise had good qualities (like most Skoda designs, one might add) and was well-liked by Italian artillerymen. The Italians liked the piece so much that it was upgraded twice after WW2, the second time in 1961 with a 105mm L/22 barrel capable of firing standard NATO ammunition. They were scrapped only after the end of the cold war. It must have been one of the longest lasting if not THE longest lasting WW1 artillery pieces anywhere.

Sorry about getting a little carried away; about the rear facing MGs of the wz. 29: such weapons were very common in the 1920s and 1930s armored cars. The rationale seems to have been that armored cars were likely to run into ambushes while reconnoitering and would be required to fight their way out with enemies on all sides. The rear driving positions, often with additional driver, were based on the same doctrine as well. Turning the cars around on narrow dirt roads was often impossible and going cross-country difficult with a 4x2 drive. Even the Italian AB 40/41 still retained those qualities out of inertia, while it was a modern design with much better cross-country mobility, and probably did not have much use for the rear driver in practice other than as an extra help in maintenance.

[Pibwl]

Aircraft:

585 LWS-4A Zubr - correct designation is LWS-6 Żubr (LWS-4A was used in old books and is now declared as wrong). This unit is however in fact redundant - a small series was built and assigned for training only, being inferior to PZL 37 Łoś, not used in combat.
BTW: it has no dedicated icon, but uses Potez 540.

587 PZL P-43 - should be PZL-43 (or PZL-43 Karas). They were produced in 1937 indeed, but for export only (now available from 10/37). Only in 9/39 two aircraft were pressed to Polish service and briefly used. It's rather "what if" unit, but in game terms its only advantage over PZL-23 Karas is 1 MG more, so it might be redundant (the players should rather not treat this plane as a standard one, for it would be inaccurate. Maybe it should be reclassified to 243 Ground attack and used in prototype formation?).

589 SPAD 61 C1 - it could also carry two #193 12kg bombs [book by A. Morgała]. Withdrawn from active use by end of 1931 (now 11/32).

590 SPAD 51 C1 - icon is typical PZL P fighter - better is 2906 (slightly larger, from some bomber, but with similar swept wings), eventually 2903.

592 PWS-A - used in units from 7/30 (now 1/30) until end of 1935 (now 12/34) [book by A. Morgała].

593 PWS-10 - used from mid-31 (now 1/31)

594 PZL P-7a - it was used in units only since spring 1933 (now: 10/32 for unit 594) [book by A. Morgała].

Precisely, units 592-594 used Vickers MGs converted to 7.9mm (earlier units: 7.7mm indeed)

602 PWS-26 - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg.
Speed should be max 3 (now 4) (217 km/h - it was a trainer)

603 Lublin R-XIIIA - proper icon is 2925 - all R-XIII, including early models, were camouflaged (as is visible on photos).

606 Lublin R-XIIIG - only #193 12kg bombs could be carried instead of 25 kg.
Speed should be only 2 (now 4) (175 km/h)