MP: Standards - MA Game (running)

[Calahan]

Thanks for the new map AoE. Just ran two quick tests and there doesn't appear to be as many unbalancing starts as the previous map.

Also, been having my first ever play around with Dominions in-built map editor, and it appears to be fairly straight-forward to use. So might have a bash at editing the map a bit (just be for my own amusement) to see if balancing it out is something I can actually do or not.

[46852]

Originally Posted by Calahan

Thanks for the new map AoE. Just ran two quick tests and there doesn't appear to be as many unbalancing starts as the previous map.

Actually there's even more unbalancing spots than in the previous, unfortunately. Got an 8-neighbour province start with 4 farmlands on my 2nd test start. And if the start locations aren't controlled at all, there's a spot with 9 neighbouring provinces too :X

Well, to be honest, I don't mind the unfair start locations, I just want the game started already

[Calahan]

All

I've done an edited version of the 'Standards' map AoE provided (the one with 216 provinces) which I hope solves a lot of the balancing issues regarding start locations. I've also spaced out the start locations as best I can so that there's no bunching, or huge areas where nobody is anywhere near.

- The White X's indicate which provinces have the 'No Start' tag.
- The coloured groups of numbers indicate the possible choice of provinces where a nation may start. I've not opted for absolutely fixed start locations, as this would be the same as highlighting the capitals via VP's (which I'm not a fan of). It's always good to have a bit of mystery :-)
- With only one exception (marked with a *) each starting locations has between 4-5 bordering provinces. Where a province has more than 5 bordering provinces, one or more of them will be swamps or wastelands, which don't really add much value. Of course this doesn't apply to the water nation.
- I've connected the two groups of water provinces on the right hand side of the map (indicated with arrows). I think this is only fair to the lone water nation, as otherwise they would be limited to about 5 water provinces before having to fight it out on land, which would be a tough ask with such a small province base.

I've run about half a dozen test games, and the nations were spread out as intended each time. But I may have missed a province out with an intended 'No Start' tag, so if a fresh pair of eyes spots one, then please don't be silent :-)


Let me know what you all think. AoE is still the boss of this game though, so if he'd rather go with his map as is, or with any editing he's done, then that cool with me all round :-)

Have included a jpeg to highlight the changes, and if people like it, I will sort out either uploading the map myself, or sending it to AoE for him to upload.

(Edit) Ok, that is one poor quality attachment. All hail the new forum and its tiny file size limits :-) Will have to find another way to show off my fancy art work :-)

[JimMorrison]

Actually, I can see what's going on in that picture just fine.


I was wondering though, is the .rgb file for this map compressed or something? It's all blurry..... Kind of makes my eyes feel funny, actually.

[AreaOfEffect]

I'm actually quite pleased you went through all that work. I'll pm you my email address and gladly accept your copy of the map. As for the attachment, it really isn't that bad once you click on it.

I think there is more we can do for Ry'leh though. No matter where he starts I see he'll have to fight a land nation for a piece of soil. Or maybe I'm just reading the image file wrong. I'll test it out once I get your copy.

Agreed 46852, I'm anxious to get playing as well. Yet, if a an extra day of work on a map can squeeze out a fairer game and grant more enjoyment to all parties involved, then I say it is well worth the wait. Consider that a game usually goes on for months.

Edit: Considering the progress we're making it seems the map issue will be resolved well before all pretenders are sent in. My feeling at this point is that submissions to the llamaserver will be the bottle neck here.

[Jazzepi]

Obviously I have a vested interest in the ocean starting spots, since I'm playing R'yleh, so take this for what you will, but this map seems even worse for the singleton water nation then the last one did.

Blargh.

Jazzepi

[Calahan]

Sent you the zipped map file AoE, and included the 'high quality' image with it that the forum wouldn't let me display (although agree the thumbnail is (just about) viewable)

I had a good think about how to help R'yleh out while editing the map, but I struggled to come up with any more answers than I did to be honest.

I thought about leaving a free area of land (all land nations 3-4 provinces away) near a more-or-less fixed start location for them so that they could get a quick foothold on land. But the problem with that was that the nations on land became very squashed indeed, plus I couldn't see how that would stop a land nation just bullying R'yleh back into the sea. Or the reverse, and R'yleh became too powerful too quickly due to having control of all the water, and loads of land, while everyone else was slugging it out.

Thought about linking the water provinces on the right with the water provinces on the left (a kind of wraparound affect for the water provinces only) but that made things look a bit odd and very ugly. Plus again I thought it made R'yleh too powerful, as they'd get 20 provinces without a challenge while everyone else was earning theirs the hard way.

So not sure what else to suggest. R'yleh start with knowing that as the only water nation, they are safe from attack for the first few years, so that's one advantage they have over everyone else. Only other option I can see using the map editor tools is to give them provinces with extra magic sites. But again that could be giving them too much. Using sledgehammers to crack nuts and all that :-)

[AreaOfEffect]

Don't worry Calahan, as soon as Jazzipi made his post I gave into the feeling I had about the map ever since I thought about the water situation. So, I locked myself in and made another map... again. I really didn't want to take your hard work and scrape it, but there really was no choice. Thank you so much for what you have done.

In the newest map, the water situation has improved to being at least as good as the first map, if hopefully not better. The problem is that I have so many other considerations and I'm at the mercy of a random number generator. I've already gone through it to eliminate a host of provinces as start locations. The details are as such:

-All starting locations on land have either 5 or 6 province on the border. No more, no less.
-All starting locations on land with 6 provinces have either a wasteland or swamp on its border.
-All starting locations on land with 5 provinces have no wastelands or swamps on their border.
-All starting location in the water have 4 to 5 water provinces on the border. (This excludes land provinces)
-There are no starting location that border the larger body of water.
-The larger body of water is 16 provinces large. Though still a bit slim.
-Choke points (as requested) are to a minimum.
-The remaining start locations are reasonable well distributed, though I have yet to zone it to ensure even spacing between nations. If it needs it, I'll do it.

My only issue is that I can't seem to stop the map generator from creating large clumps of mountains and large circular bodies of water that don't cut off huge sections of land or make a ton of choke points. Anyhow, enough ranting, here it is:

Link to standards_version 3.zip

Edit: Testing shows that some zoning will have to be done. Not a big deal as I only need to eliminate sites until I have 12 small clusters. I have a visual record of which sites are start locations, so it won't be too hard. I'm pretty sure it's a change you won't need to download as I can just make it on the map I'll upload to the llamaserver.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

As for the attachment, it really isn't that bad once you click on it.

Ummm, if that was response to me on the blurry comment..... I didn't click on it, I was playing on it. In-game, it was very blurry. I just got the new version, let me check it and see.....


Okay! I see what it is, it's just because the pixel count is so low, that zooming to my normal play "height", stretches and blurs the graphics.

Ummmm. First test on the map, my starting province is off the top edge of the map. O.o

[JimMorrison]

Oh I see what's going on. You've inadvertently attached the old image file with the new .map file. I hope you didn't lose the other. And yes I confirmed this by deleting the files, and unpacking from the .rar again, still bad. 8(