vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

[Foodstamp]

I'm pretty sure you are aware that amulet of antimagic is construction 4, and this spell is thaumaturgy 4, so in order of your brilliant suggestion be able to be used the nation
1) need astral
2) need to rush to construction 4 as soon as the other nation rush to thau 4
3) need to have better and faster research than the VotD caster, which might be impossible depending on the nations compared research mages
4) even if you run as much as the other guy does, you need 1 turn to craft the item and 1 turn to equip it, and only 1 turn to cast VotD, so it still beats you
5) it is reported that the out of combat spells reduce the MR (see the link). Being it a WAD or bug, it is there.
6) penetration items also are available.
7) it cost 3 damn gems, it is easily spamable for the right nations
8)the original poster in the original thread that i linked you at the starting of this post had MR 25.
9) did i say i did not have an amulet of mr?

Really, this is the best argument you have? You have equal chance of getting to magic resistance items as your enemy has to cast the spell. On top of that, for him to spam it, he needs multiple mages that can cast it. Not many nations can pull that off. The scenario you list step by step above is not unbiased in the least bit. It is infinitely easier to forge an amulet than it is to spam vengeance of the dead.

So while you try to point out how impossible it is for you to counter this spell, I would argue that it is more difficult to get the spell going. And you are trying to tell me that your SC failed his MR against all attempts with an amulet of antimagic you had equipped. I am calling shenanigans here, you did not mention an amulet until I did, and if you are being honest about having one, then that is some pretty terrible luck and will not likely happen to you in future games.

To the MR 25 comment. I have used this spell in quite a few games, as I love to play R'lyeh. And to hit an MR that high would be close to impossible without penetration items. For every time I have had the spell work on a powerful target, I have had it fail numerous times. Sometimes when people get butthurt over game mechanices, they have a tendency to remember the event a little different than it actually happened. I am guessing in your case an Amulet was added in retrospect, and in the other guy's case, the ratio of success/failure is probably a bit skewed.

Or maybe you are right. You guys have found the end-all-be-all I win spell in this game. Many people will read this thread and from here until the game is patched to fix this heinous spell, it will be the focal point of every strategy conceived from this point onward.

[triqui]

OmikronWarrior said:
Vengeance of the Dead is definitely a better spell than mind hutn, but it does have its limits.

1) A nation needs access to a combined Death and Astral Mage (3S,2D) to cast the spell. Not a lot of those floating around.

Utgarde, LA ryleh, and MA ermor comes to mind. And honestly i dont think this is a good argument. Mist of Deception, in it's buggy state, it is completelly overpowered and exploitable. Even if there are fewer A6 casters than there are S3D2 ones.

2) It requires an MR check. Pretenders have a base MR of 18, meaning assumming no other modifiers the spell will only work 8% of the time. The use of Penetration boosters is obvious, but so is the equiping of MR boosters. Finally, dominion will alter MR.

If you read the original post i linked, MR is not as good as it reads vs this spell, and being easily spammable, it is not a guarantee of nothing. Beyond that, It is Thau4. Antimagic items are Cons4. Not that easy of a counter, plus several nations do not have astral or earth2 easily achieavable.

3) If the MR fails, the avenging dead still have to kill the unit. IF the unit is an SC, chances are he or she will be equiped to deal with masses of low level troops. Obviously, the spell become more powerful with each casting, but this combined with the MR check is enough to balance the cost of the spell.

Actually, they don't need to kill the SC at all. THey only need to hang around dying in masses until turn 75 bell sounds.

I dont see it as help needed for SC. I see it as a bug problem, and a bug exploit. Same bug than Mist of Deception for that matter: mindless units without a leader *should* crumble. This zombies should not be mindless, or should need a freddy krugger type. Either way, they should rout in turn 50 as every other single attacker does.

[triqui]

On top of that, for him to spam it, he needs multiple mages that can cast it. Not many nations can pull that off.

That's completelly pointless. Not a lot of nations can pull off a Mist of Deception + Wrath skies + returning home combo, and it still is a overpowered combo for those that can. The fact that only a few nations can benefit for this tactic is an aggravated insult. It makes those nations to have access to a very soon and very fast to research anti-awake spell that you have very little chances to survive against due to a bug in the combat resolution. That only some nations can abuse it is what make it less widely known, nothing more.

BTW, Supercombatants probalby dont need further help. But late age ryleh does not need it either, that for sure...

And for the last time, i'm not asking for a nerf to the spell. I'm asking it *works* as the *rules* say it *should* work. Which means attacker loses in turn 50 if defender manage to survive.

[thejeff]

Simplest solution to VotD would be to add leaders for it. Maybe 1/20 or so, so that it's not too easy to just kill the leader to win. Make them as indistinguishable as possible so it's hard to target them. Same size, also mindless, etc.

Then, they'll rout at turn 50 and the chaff will start to disintegrate.

[lch]

Ohhhhhh! Another Vengeance of the Dead thread! When I thought everything that could be said about it has already been done so.

The easy fix to the whole dilemma would be: The devs hack the spell so that the kills from the VotD assassination attempt does not count towards the units kill count.

[NTJedi]

I believe VotD should be adjusted not because of balance reasons, but because events occur which do not make any sense.


This has a few issues which are just logically wrong:

1) Being auto-killed while fleeing during an assassination. Historically and logically incorrect.

2) Successfully fleeing during a dream should at worst cause the target to awaken... maybe with the battle fright affliction.

3) Killing these undead within a dream should not count as kills. This results in one soul being doubled or tripled and appearing in future VotD castings.

4) The battle turn limits... as I understand are 50 the attacker retreats, 75 defender retreats and 100 all attackers are killed. As computers become more and more powerful it would be nice if us gamers had the option of adjusting the battle turn limits. Currently every game we play has this all powerful organized union which forces non-golem attackers to retreat at 5pm... and then forces non-golem defenders to retreat at 8pm. I hate this organized union.

[Zeldor]

NTJedi:

Actually Golem vanishes when his turn limit comes. He just suddenly stops to exist.

[johan osterman]

NTJedi said:

I believe VotD should be adjusted not because of balance reasons, but because events occur which do not make any sense.


This has a few issues which are just logically wrong:

1) Being auto-killed while fleeing during an assassination. Historically and logically incorrect.

2) Successfully fleeing during a dream should at worst cause the target to awaken... maybe with the battle fright affliction.

3) Killing these undead within a dream should not count as kills. This results in one soul being doubled or tripled and appearing in future VotD castings.

4) The battle turn limits... as I understand are 50 the attacker retreats, 75 defender retreats and 100 all attackers are killed. As computers become more and more powerful it would be nice if us gamers had the option of adjusting the battle turn limits. Currently every game we play has this all powerful organized union which forces non-golem attackers to retreat at 5pm... and then forces non-golem defenders to retreat at 8pm. I hate this organized union.

If you did not become auto killed when you fled from assasination it would be very hard to use assasins except on commanders moving with armies. Every player would put all important commanders not currently headed for combat on retreat.

[Zeldor]

johan osterman:

Nah, you wouldn't do that if they would land in neighbouring province. If enemy decided to retreat commanders it would be rather more useful than getting some random kills with assassins.

[johan osterman]

Zeldor said:
johan osterman:

Nah, you wouldn't do that if they would land in neighbouring province. If enemy decided to retreat commanders it would be rather more useful than getting some random kills with assassins.

Which is why I wrote they would put the orders on important commanders not heading for battle. Such as mages researching, casting rituals, site searching, forging. All those would become immune to assasination and assasination spells.