Hall of Shame

[IndyPendant]

I've said most of it in my original post above, but here's a few points I would like to make on this subject:

--Comparing breaking NAPs to murder is rather extreme. (Sorry, moderation. ; )

--Last I checked, this was a turn-based fantasy strategy game with some few roleplaying elements. Not DND. Blaming any backstabbing on RP is nothing more than a convenient cop-out.

--"Evil" is too easily altered to fit one's desires. Is MA Ermor a vile nation of death-worshippers, or a virtuous people desperately trying to hold onto their humanity in the face of temptation from undead? Is MA Man based loosely on noble Arthurian lore, or precursors to modern-day mankind with all the corruption that entails? MA Marignon can be a good example of a lawful, honourable nation--but would they necessarily keep agreements with undead-loving Ermor, or the chaotic blood-worshipping pagans of Pangaea, or the heretical Golem Cult of Agartha, or...you get the point. I have a saying as a GM: "Flavour Text can justify (or limit!) anything." That's true here as anywhere. RP is just an excuse. Period.

--I do not want to play with people who break NAPs whenever convenient. That is not the type of game I want to play. So I am deliberately taking steps to try to make it so those types of people don't want to play with me! They don't have to agree with my opinions--and they don't have to play with me either. I would prefer it if they didn't! If these posts and this stance of mine turn away potential scumsucking, backstabbing liars from playing games I have joined, then GREAT! I have achieved at least part of my goals.

--You'll note I haven't publicly accused anyone, although I do have a (private) Hall of Shame list of my own. It's a short list, of only five names so far: two definite, one probable, and two that bear watching (but could go either way). Some of these names are easily searchable by my posts, but I have no intentions of publicly lashing out in this thread. That will accomplish worse than nothing, only serving to make me look bad. (Which seems silly--and pathetic!--to me, but *shrug* it's true.)

--This is a heated subject, and I don't want to escalate things. I think I've said everything I have to say on this subject, and I'm going to try to keep from regurgitating the same old stuff. I won't post here again unless I feel I have something valuable to contribute.

--IndyPendant.

[moderation]

kasnavada said:

kasnavada, You are quoting me out of context. You need to go back and reread the whole paragraph because you obviously missed the point. I am saying that players ought to take responsibility for their actions. Try and read it again:

I have two thoughts on this. The first is that maybe discussions of NAPs should be done on an out-of-character basis, just so that everyone knows who we are dealing with. Blaming the breaking of your NAP on your pretender's bad behavior is not a very good idea in my opinion. That's like committing crime X and blaming it on your imaginary friend. I think you as a player should take responsibility for all your actions at the end of the day. Maybe that's a little stark, but I think it dispels a lot of confusion.

>"It is called roleplay. People do it all day when playing FPS anyway : I mean in those games you are responsible for the murder of thousands of imaginary "friends" (ok, enemies, whatever). In a strategy game, you get hundreds of your own "imaginary friend" killed too if you think of it. I really don't understand what is bothering you, unless you cannot make a difference between a game and real life."

Come on, this is bull and you know it. Those imaginary people in Dom 3 do not exist. The people that you make agreements with in a game do. If you don't understand the difference and can't own up to breaking an agreement because you say it is your imaginary pretender's fault then you are the one who needs to go outside more.

>"I like to think of NAP and alliances as secrets. Having them recorded by a third party just makes the gem less fun for me, and it screams for corruption of the neutral party."

But then do you trust the host of the game? I think it's all very convenient to keep your NAPs a secret after you've spelled out how likely you are to break them.

>"But, somehow, when a real person is involved, all should be fair ? When I RP I actually choose to give some hints before backstabbing people, and show that my pretender isn't reliable. If people don't get it, it's their own loss."

You realize that these quality of these hints highly subjective and that these hints are determined by you. Why would it be in your interests to betray your actions? I'm sure you can drop some obscure hints and then point to them after the fact as proof that you fulfilled your NAP responsibilities, but I think this is bull.

>"I realise this post may sound harsh and may alarm some of my allies in the games I play, but :
- comparing a murder in a game to real life, to me, shows that you need to take a break from playing and cool down a bit."

You can compare it to any crime you like. Say you use tell the police your imaginary friend or pretender god made you steal someone's laptop or break a car window. It's still the same principle. Frankly, I think you need to get in touch with reality a bit more. There are infinite amount of things you can excuse with crappy roleplaying, I frankly, I think it is nonsense. Your resort to ad hominem doesn't lend any merit to your argument.

>"NAP nor anything related to a game should be done on a out-of-character basis, that's just calling for real life and lasting grudge."

That's called taking responsibility for your actions. How can you be trusted if you make up a brand new identity every game?

I think you should read my other post. I've answered your other points. In general though, you argument is flawed because your pretender god identity is completely disposable. You make a new one for every game, and therefore you essentially have zero accountability for your actions.

[moderation]

IndyPendant said:
--Comparing breaking NAPs to murder is rather extreme. (Sorry, moderation. ; )

So compare it to stealing a piece of candy. It's the principle behind it -- using your misbehaving pretender god as an excuse. Sheez!

--Last I checked, this was a turn-based fantasy strategy game with some few roleplaying elements. Not DND. Blaming any backstabbing on RP is nothing more than a convenient cop-out.

Exactly! I'm glad someone else gets it.

After some emotional reactions to being betrayed that way myself a number of times, I have decided to try a new long-term strategy of using this small-community, easy-rep situation to my advantage. If a player betrays an agreement with me, or doesn't follow through on a promise, I will do *anything and everything* I can to ruin that player's game. Period, no-holds-barred. Scorched Earth tactics? You bet! Ignoring another opponent to focus solely on the one that broke his agreement? Of course! Cripple myself, if it means ensuring the other player can't win? Check. (All of course, assuming I can't just defeat the scum normally. If I can do that, none of those extreme tactics are necessary.)

However I can't agree you here. There's got to be a better way than this. Besides, this method is just too time intensive for me. Spending weeks or months to get back at someone else and holding a grudge all that time? Sorry, there has got to be a better way.

Another I idea I have is a "Hall of Honorable Players" (if you want a less corny name, then you can change it ). It would be completely voluntary -- everyone who wants to play in a sportsmanship-like manner signs up. People who make up flimsy roleplaying excuses for bull**** need not apply.

[Darkstone]

I'm confused.

Some of you say that NAP's are not necessarily honored. You say you should be prepared for betrayal at any time. But what is the point of having a NAP when you have to devote mages/troops/resources to defend against betrayal & invasion, and essentially act like the NAP doesn't exist in the first place?

(I may be a novice to MP, and I'm certainly not suggesting that a war game, should be anything other than a war game, but as far as I can see, these 'honor if you feel like it NAPs' is a contradiction in terms, or just rather meaningless.)

[vfb]

moderation, it's your right to play in games where NAPs are always honored. It sounds like it would be a good idea for you to start some games like that, or at least check that that's a condition of the games that you join.

But I have no idea why you are linking to Sheap's tips in your signature when you seem to disagree with every single point he makes in Tip 1:

Sheap: 1.1) Don't berate the other players
moderation: People who make up flimsy roleplaying excuses for bull**** need not apply.

Sheap: 1.2) Do remember to draw a clear distinction between your in-game (role playing) persona and your out of game self. This is especially important if you are planning on lying and backstabbing.
IndyPendant: Blaming any backstabbing on RP is nothing more than a convenient cop-out.
moderation: Exactly!

Sheap: 1.3) Keep the wall between the game and the forums/real world.
moderation: I believe that diplomatic functions like negotiating NAPs should be done out of character.

Sheap: 1.4) ... Treating other players with fairness might help your nations get along, but nobody has a right to demand or even expect it.
No quote from you for this one, but the general impression I get is that you don't agree.

[moderation]

vfb said:
moderation, it's your right to play in games where NAPs are always honored. It sounds like it would be a good idea for you to start some games like that, or at least check that that's a condition of the games that you join.

But I have no idea why you are linking to Sheap's tips in your signature when you seem to disagree with every single point he makes in Tip 1:

Sheap: 1.1) Don't berate the other players
moderation: People who make up flimsy roleplaying excuses for bull**** need not apply.

I understood what Sheap said as "Don't berate the other players [for something they do in a game]." In any case, this is not a game thread and I reserve the right to call bull when I see it. You may want to read the above posts like #591195 to see why I'm annoyed. I do my best to make clear arguments, but I also reserve the right to get angry with irrelevant ad hominem attacks.

I think the idea of a generally accepted code of conduct to be a good idea. Getting everyone to agree on what those rules should be of course, is more difficult. I adopted Sheap's Tips in the absence of anything else. But after some consideration, I have formulated different opinions for reasons listed above. I just find inappropriate roleplaying more problematic than no roleplaying. I find Tips 2 and 3 to still be useful though.

[Dedas]

It seems that some of you are trying to construct some kind of artificial certainties (player made laws) within this game besides the natural ones we already have.

Natural laws are the only real certainties we have inside the game. They are not in any way established by the players. It is Gods (Illwinters) law if you wish. If you put your trust in them you will not be deceived (except when cheated - see below). Examples of natural laws would be:

*If you spend gold on recruiting a unit that unit will show up the next turn if you haven't lost the province and if unrest is under 100.

*If a move a unit into enemy territory a conflict will occur.

If we break any of those rules we are cheating and that should and must be punished severely.


Then there are the artificial laws that the players enforce upon themselves or try to enforce upon others.
They are established on the grounds mutual or solitary interests. They are enforced by mutual interest, fear, power, hatred, love etc.
They should not extend into other games or the outside world as they are created on and within a unique and confined world/universe. Examples of artificial laws would be :

*A NAP

*An alliance

*Trading

Breaking artificial laws can and should only be punished by those who want to uphold the laws, and only within the game itself as they are confined within it. The details of the punishment is up to the players and could be anything except breaking the natural laws and extending the punishment beyond the game world where those laws apply.

To summarize
Natural laws are the certainties on which you should build your empire.

Artificial laws are uncertain and changing. Putting all your trust in them would be folly.

Artificial laws could however be great and powerful tools in capable hands, as constructs by the players to enhance their natural power within the game world. Although the creators of such laws must not forget that the laws existence is dependent upon not only her own interests and power, but on every player's own agenda within that universe. And as every player has her own agenda and goals (winning is not everyones goal) that creates the need to know that agenda. Knowledge is the power you have to stabilize such artificial laws

One last thing: if you ever want and feel the need to put your trust in artificial laws, make sure that you have your own natural power to fall back upon when your fortune and friends turn their back on you.

[moderation]

Dedas, I hope you're not trying to make a connection between what you refer to as "natural law" and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-law_argument because that would just be too complicated. In any case, Illwinter Gamer Design is a cool company, but I can assure you that it is not God.

You make it sound like I am trying to build a flying machine circa 1800. By your definition, even simple team games defy the laws of gravity because team games are not coded in by Illwinter and therefore defy "natural law" because they are only held together by spit and player agreements.

As far as I'm concerned, any set of rules that a group of people mutually agree to as conditions for playing a game is fine if they like it that way. The problem here is that there is some ambiguity about whether people mean what they say when they say it, which leads to disagreements such as this.

[Twan]

I find the debate interesting.

Out of RP elements, I think the question is : do dominions is an alliance/betrayal game (like Diplomacy and many other games using simultaneous moves) or do dominions is a pure wargame using simultaneous moves just because it's more convenient for pbems ?

If we are in some kind of med-fan diplomacy, of course noboby has to be honourable ; if we are in a game where strategy and not betrayal is supposed to decide who wins, NAPs and other agreements must be honored.

The fact is, without rules or metagame reputation, the dominions wego system is ultra favorable to traitors. So the tradition of "unbreakable" (without getting a bad reputation) x turns warning NAP is very logical if players don't see dominions as one game of the Diplomacy genre.

Surprise attacks on an ally/NAP-partneer may be seen as an exploitation of the wego system, exactly like not respecting a trade agreement. So another question is, do I have the right to propose you a trade and never pay ? IMO if we consider abusing the wego system for surprise NAP-breaking a valid behaviour, abusing the trade system should be considered one too, after all it's exactly the same : the two things are non-enforceable in the actual system, and an exploitation of the mechanics of simultaneous turn resolution.

Personnally as an old Diplomacy player (first strategy game I've played a lot) I have nothing against Dom-Diplo games, but as I know the community is rather in a Dom-Wargame approach I tend to always respect NAPs, be fair in trades, etc... And dislike players who pretend to ignore that the community usually expect them to respect "artificial laws". It would change of course if I sign to a game someone launch saying we are playing the Diplomacy form.

So I think MP games should more often have a clear philosophy and rules stating what is allowed or not, saying since the beginning if a particular game is Dominions-Diplomacy or Dominions-Wargame or Dominions-RPG or what you want.

For a Dominions-wargame strict ruleset, I would suggest both NAPs and trade agreements to be public (or the publication in the game thread of related PM allowed in case of betrayal). And in case someone is accused of violation and deny there must be a master password ready to be given to someone (not playing) to verify. So no flame war with false accusations, hall of shame, etc... clear rules, a way to enforce them, and if someone don't respect them, he is out of this particular game.

[Dedas]

Ha ha ha! I'm just drawing a loose analogy. The terms I choose might not be "modern" but I think they hold up and are sound. By natural law I mean a law that is in the nature set by the game. And I'm not saying that God is Illwinter but rather pointing out that we *could* look at it that way so to further illustrate the analogy with lex naturalis (in a scholastic sense).

Of course you can establish your own set of natural laws. But every player participating in the game have to agree upon that those laws are natural laws and thus cannot be broken. This have to be done in every game you play. Else the natural and unbreakable laws that apply are those that are set by the developers. Any other law (agreement) is artificial and can thus be broken (with the said consequences of course).