Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please read

[Agrajag]

B0rsuk said:
I can't see how it could harm the game.

The effort involved in programming it, and the bugs that would stem from it. (I can already see one of the "ancient" dom2 bugs returning due to "loose formation".
And a game that is even more confusing for newbs.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, loose formations could be cool, but don't think that there's no potential adverse effects.

[PDF]

B0rsuk said:
Here's a hint from inexperienced Dominions player: you can mix various units in same squad. So you can mix both BIG and little units in same squad. This should more less average the size of your units, making them indirectly less vulnerable to area effect spells like Banish. Essentially, it should make your little units effectively occupy more space.

Not tested.

By the way: there should be a formation option allowing you to affect spacing/spread of units, so you can simply order little units to loose formation, sacrificing gang-up potential for improved AoE resistance. Would add yet another tactical layer to the game, I can't see how it could harm the game.

About mixing units : yes it's a good tactics, mix small & big, undead & non-undead, so small vulnerable undead couls be spread out and Banishments will be less effective.

About "loose" formations : many improvements (new formations, better "front-lining"..) were requested by players, but we didn't get anything... [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

[BigJMoney]

Hey Corwin, lemme throw a couple ideas your way.

#1) About the Demons being reliant upon humans for success. I don't think this is as bad as it initially seems. For one thing, demons making deals with humans is thematic, so it shouldn't be a thematic concern. For another thing, you don't have to be too discriminant as to what indies you have on your team, so long as they are human and un-banishable (although heavy inf. is a suggestion). For a third reason, it's not unfair because, as has been said before, each nation plays differently. If it falls that Oni-Kings needs to be a Nation that hires indies to be successful, then that's just part of that Nation's style. If you think about Ashen Empire and how they really, REALLY benefit from hiring a few indie slave armies to protect/fight against priest armies, then it's a similar situation. Demons simply have a weakness, and it needs to be worked around. Saying that one should be able to play without any humans in the army is like saying an undead theme (Ashen Empire) should be able to play with 100% undead in the army -- they technically can, but it's not wise. Haha, you end up being like a prejudice demon lord who refuses to work with mortals and then gets trounced by more cunning enemies.

#2) About the whole retreating when turned into ghosts. I think this could go either way, gameplay-wise. You've listed the major downside already. You lose the battle. However, that's not really that bad considering your losing the battle when all the other nations would have as well! Think about the benefit, though. The survivability of the Onis goes up substatially, and a whole new game dynamic becomes apparent for Oni-Kings: they are very difficult to wipe out. I would say to make this work well though, Yomi would have to all flee to the same province and regroup; you might call them "masters of retreating" or something. Imagine losing a battle, but getting 66%-75% of your demonic army back at the end of the fight, one province back. That would frustrate the heck out of MP opponents. So, what we're really looking at is a trade-off. The ability to hold out longer during a battle versus decreasing casualties. In a strategy game, I would opt for the latter. In the end, most strategy games boil down to numbers of troops. Also consider that the ability to hold out longer during a losing battle is not desirable anyway. I can see Yomi being very a desirable nation if they have the ability to trade losses with other nations and always end out on top. Of course, for this to work, the fleeing ghosts would have to be able to survive their flight, but I think that's very realistic considering they'd be fleeing as individuals, while their former squad would remain to hold the line. Heck, it would also just look freakin cool in the battle simulator!

Anyway, those were just little considerations. Hopefully I just presented a different way to look at it.

=$=

PS -- Imagine adding the unflinching undead to an Oni army like that. The Undead would never flee, and every single demon soldier would get the chance to escape. Lot of potential.

[Nerfix]

PDF said:
Maverni has great mages, but the only worthwhile troops are Eponi Knights and Carnute Nobles (the ones that get berserk).
The sacred warriors aren't worth a bless strategy and are awfully expensve (35 gp!!) for their stats.

At start you can't expand without significant losses before you can use Protection and BE. Then problem is that before you reach magic level 4 in several path you are clearly outclassed by nearly any other EA nations, particularly the non-human ones with big nasty troops such as Yomi, Agartha, Abysia or Niefelheim.

Compare costs and stats of a Boar Warrior vs a Agarthan Seal Guard : a SG costs roughly 2 BW (gold and res), it's laughable.

And you don't even get cool national summons !

Edit : and no sneaky troops neither !

Why are you even trying a bless strategy othern than E4 with Marverni? Not all nations can do well for it, and other nations have better choices for it.

The Carnute Nobles have far suckier stats than their Ambitate colleagues and their only saving grace is the Berzerk that fires only every now and then.

Perhaps your problems with significant losses have come from using inferior units (Carnutes) while far better choices are around (Ambitates)?

Yomi and Agartha are vulnerable to missiles (You get javelins, which are good, especially against Agartha), Agartha and Niefelheim are vulnerable to being ganged on. Admitedly Yomi can bring archers and some of the Niefels get the frost aura but there are no foolproof plans.

Another noteworthy thing is that Yomi and especially Niefelheim and Agartha have worse research capability than Marverni. This can be further boosted by taking Magic scale, and since you can't pull a good bless strat with Marverni, why bother putting too much magic for your pretender?

[KissBlade]

Then everyone would use loose formation.

Also as for Marveni expansion problems, you get slings and javelins early game to mix with your heavies. Use them.

[BigJMoney]

Boron said:
Your shortbows have 30 range.
So place your ko oni on the edge of the battlefield with hold and attack x orders.
Just before your archers to protect them from fast enemy troops.

Tactics like those simply don't work in Dominions. Weapon ranges are the one minor disappointment in the Dominions games to me. I've found that a weapon with a longer range than another weapon doesn't mean very much. I've set up longbows verus shortbows, and there are no tactics. Even with longbows at the very edge of the map, shortbows can still move forward and attack in the first round. That's no even one round worth of delay! The way APs work in Dominions, it's possible to move your AP (or maybe it's AP-1) and still make a full attack/spell. I've always thought this should be changed for spell-casters and ranged troops, myself, but I've never gotten around to mentioning it because I'm probably the only person who cares. Of course, you'd also have to discriminate thrown ranged weapons from "devoted" ranged weapons like bows and crossbows, because I think javelins and slings should be able to be thrown while on the run. Oh yeah, and I suppose mounted archers should be able to attack on the move as well.

Sorry, starting to go OT here. Also, you guys talking about Maverni, please be careful because it's now OT as well.

=$=

[KissBlade]

Ashen Empire is way different than Yomi, the two should not be compared since they are of different age, Ashen Empire's UD are harder to banish, free and come in hordes. Not to mention offensive dominion and worthless provinces for people to conquer.

[PDF]

Nerfix,
Yes what I meant it that a bless strategy was useless for Maverni, but the way I wrote it wasn't that clear, sorry !
Abour tribe matching (Ambibates vs Carnutes) : well, Ambibates costs 5 gold less, have 1 morale less (at 11 only, which is not good), 1 att and 4 Def more than Carnutes - here you're right, they're much better- but Carnutes have berserk, which is nice imho, and Wood surv.

That's not a so huge difference, at least when confronted to Onis or Seal Guards, both dies in doves !
And in practice I mix both - but in my thread I've summarized

So I agree to say there's 3 usable units, Eponi Kn, Carnutes and Ambibates. Yet all are weak in EA...

As for research I agree : the only good thing Maverni has is superb mages (that are also priests).

[Nerfix]

Funny, I just fought against Agartha and their Seal Guards, which weren't that large in numbers I admit, died in droves again my Ambitates...

Onis might be a different beast, but I'd just Curse and Horror Mark them.

EDIT: If morale is bringing you problems, mix Ambis with Standards. I use Carnutes only when I must quickly bring reinforcements over forest provinces.

For erly expansions I used their Javelineers. Sure they die a lot, but are also easily replaced.

[PDF]

Nerfix,
In the game I'm referring to, I was already weakened by a "meeting engagement" against Onis I wasn't preparred to, and in the big battle vs Agartha my opponent had *large* numbers of SG with E9 bless, with a Troglodites front rank, vs my army of mainly Eponis and Carnutes, which were (for some..) Ethereal and Protected. All this was totally ineffective due to their large strength and magic glaive...
Maybe also the Knight size was a drawback as I couldn't field enough units vs each Agarthan.
And without effective combat spells my mages didn't do much neither, and their small Elementals didn't dent the opposition.

Thanks for the tips anyway, I'll try another time