Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[Endoperez]

Ah, I am still sorry that I didn't have time to multiplay Caelum in Dom:PPP, using Temple Guards as my armies... In Dom:PPP, they weren't restrited to the capitol, and although there were no blessing effects priests could cast spell giving sacreds +3Att +3Str, worth two sixes of DomII!

If Return of Raptors had some king of non-sacred, non-restricted but weaker and/or more expensive Temple Guard they would be much more interesting... Unfortunately, that won't happen unless the raptors punish caelumians by cutting their wings and somehow manage to still get them to fight on their sides...

[Vicious Love]

For once, haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if any of this has already been suggested. Haven't thought this through, either, so further apologies if any of this is... stupid. I'm not even convinced a nerf/buff is in order.

Base T'ien Ch'i is a model of centralization, and I really can't imagine them getting Celestial Masters anywhere save in their capitol. However, they're immensely big on the whole heavenly motif, and so it strikes me as odd that their CMs have only one astral. Even if the elements are fundamental components of divinity, you'd still assume a Celestial Master would have at least two points of the Celestial Path. They'd still be slightly less susceptible to dueling(Although still very vulnerable), and would have more firepower in a perfectly thematic way. If this is still underpowered, we could always throw in some'a them awesome multi-javelin ballistae, as a cost-efficient, high-resource bit of artillery to give T'ien Ch'i's army both added style and added clout.

In contrast to base T'ien Ch'i, I see little sense in S&A's Celestial Masters being capitol only. I mean, sacred bamboo grove aside, S&A is a time of magicians and nobles of immense power popping out of nowhere to do battle with their peers. Everything in S&A is a dime a dozen, and everyone knows kung fu. Besides, you've gotta give players some incentive to recruit Masters of the Five Elements.

Any of that any good?

[Vicious Love]

OOh! Ooh! And S&A's Celestial Masters should have the stats to reflect said kung fu. Might make for a more distinct kind of battlemage, especially with their mojo mix.

[peasant]

Don't forget base T'ien Ch'i stealth economy destroyers/ scouts. Pretty efficient in causing unrest... but negated often by aggressive patroling

[Tuna]

Endoperez said:
Ah, I am still sorry that I didn't have time to multiplay Caelum in Dom:PPP, using Temple Guards as my armies... In Dom:PPP, they weren't restrited to the capitol, and although there were no blessing effects priests could cast spell giving sacreds +3Att +3Str, worth two sixes of DomII!

heh, but why would you need them, considering just how effective lesser air elementals were in the game...

[Endoperez]

Why do you think I didn't use them?

[PvK]

In my second MP Dominions game, which is still ongoing, I played my first game (SP or MP) as T'ien Ch'i. For what it's worth, and to poo poo the "TC will die in all MP games!" comments, I have been in the top 1-3 positions on practically all metrics throughout the game. I'd also mention that human troops are still an important element in armies.

I tend to partly agree that they can seem weak... but I also think they are also strong in many ways... even if none of those ways is by itself particularly impressive in an obvious way.

I.e., I think they are fairly strong, but in subtle ways. For example, they have many paths, which can with work and luck be put to many different uses. But it can take a lot of work and thought, very unlike nations which are very strong in a couple of very visible ways.

The Astral-1 on Celestial Masters is troubling... if you have to fight an opponent with much cheaper astral-1 mages or a strong astral king. If you don't, then it may not be a problem. I sort of think it would be nice if they had astral-2, or astral-0 with 2 random picks instead of one. I won't pretend enough expertise, experience, or knowledge of the dev's intentions to say that should be done, but if I had the option to recruit ones with 2? or 2S1? instead of 1S1?, I would use it and feel a lot less weak.

There sure are a lot of things they can do, though.

I also find it ironic, at least when considering Kung Fu et al, that TC units don't have particularly good fighting skills overall, except for the Prince Generals. TC mages with good fighting skills would certainly be different... of course they can become competant already with Quickness plus Blessings, but if they started out with skill... that would be something to think about.

I have found some neat things they can do, and some non-obvious strengths, and their casters sure have many possibilities... I think that a clever and patient player with strong knowledge of spells could probably be strong with them, but if you try to just use brute strength or techniques learned with other nations, they can seem weak.

One of their strengths is already massed bows, so I don't know that a repeating crossbow is going to change their nature much at all, except to give them another toy along the lines of what they already have.

The conscription effect is lame. Hardly ever happens except for very low levels which are worth almost no gold, and may just cause a problem due to the weird routing logic (strong unit tries to be alone but oops there is one conscript who dies, so strong unit routs...).

I think it'd be thematic to have the imperial theme have stronger conscription - say steady rise up to 5, and frequent up to 10, then levels above 10 be like they are now above 0.

Maybe also give them 1.5 to 2.0 footment per point of PD... though just to be thematic - I don't think that's needed for balance.

The Jade Emperor is I think a bit overpriced for his abilities, which is too bad.

PvK

[deccan]

PvK said:
I also find it ironic, at least when considering Kung Fu et al, that TC units don't have particularly good fighting skills overall, except for the Prince Generals. TC mages with good fighting skills would certainly be different... of course they can become competant already with Quickness plus Blessings, but if they started out with skill... that would be something to think about.

That's a neat idea, and it would be thematic too I think. Chinese philosophy is keen on the strong body = strong mind idea, and I would envision Chinese philosopher / mages to be outdoorsy, well-travelled, independent types, not the D&D mage who spends his time studying scrolls at the cost of atrophied muscles.

Perhaps give them something like 10 attack and 12 defence, to reflect the likely emphasis of "soft", i.e. water-like martial arts training?

Heh, playing these CM with fire and water blessings would be quite cool indeed...

PvK said:
I have found some neat things they can do, and some non-obvious strengths, and their casters sure have many possibilities...

Some suggestions perhaps?

PvK said:
Maybe also give them 1.5 to 2.0 footment per point of PD... though just to be thematic - I don't think that's needed for balance.

Chinese hordes indeed.

[Vicious Love]

PvK said:
I sort of think it would be nice if they had astral-2, or astral-0 with 2 random picks instead of one.

While I heartily second the former(Hence my suggesting it myself, though I'm certain it's been suggested numerous times before) the latter just makes no thematic sense at all. I mean, even with an elemental scheme of divinity/enlightenment, one simply cannot overlook T'ien Ch'i's obssession with astronomy, transcendence, fortune, and so on. I mean, no one'll buy a Celestial Master with no celestial magic. Which is to say, they'll buy him en masse, especially if he's not capitol-only, but they won't find him very believable.

I also find it ironic, at least when considering Kung Fu et al, that TC units don't have particularly good fighting skills overall, except for the Prince Generals.

Seems to me like this'd only be relevant if there were kung fu oriented units. Which there aren't, probably as Johan O's way of avoiding cliches like herpes simplex B, regardless of said cliches role in actual history, to say nothing of folklore.

TC mages with good fighting skills would certainly be different... of course they can become competant already with Quickness plus Blessings, but if they started out with skill... that would be something to think about.

And a needlessly complex weapon. Like a segmented staff. Or a sword with tassels. Sweet.

One of their strengths is already massed bows, so I don't know that a repeating crossbow is going to change their nature much at all, except to give them another toy along the lines of what they already have.

Observe.
Bow: }

Ballista:

Note the size difference and adorable SCA people. Consider the tactical implications thereof.

[PvK]

Good point about CELESTIAL masters really wanting astral skill to live up to their names... also underlines the question of why they have higher water skill than astral, taking us back to your suggestion of making them W1S2.

As for ballistas being larger than bows, yes... however I was responding to the suggestion of adding the Cho Ku No repeating crossbow, which may have been deployed in large Versions, but my recollection is the individual bolts weren't the size of ballista shots. So I wasn't thinking of a seige weapon like a ballista.

PvK