c'tis themes

[licker]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
A few points.


Didn't Alex mention he had success using big armies of LI javelin backed by a Lizard King and a couple of sacred serpents.

Cheers

Keir

Yes I believe he did mention that, which was why I was questioning him further about his stance that the Elite warriors were the way to go...

I do not doubt their efficacy, I just want more discussion than simple statements stating they are the 'only' or 'best' way to go.

Anyway, I've had good success using LI and SGs early, then later adding in Poison Slingers and Serpents. The SGs are fairly solid and my loses with them leading a charge are quite low, the only time I have problmes is when the LI get a bit ahead of the SGs, or draw *alot* of missile fire. The slingers are great at pelting the enemy HI and weakening them so they die faster when the serpents and SGs reach them (or vice versa). I suppose the warriors may be more effective than the SGs at getting a rout since they do more damage quickly, but they will be vulnerable to your javalins and to enemy missiles while they are on their way.

Oh well, I'll have to see how it works out for myself I guess. The bigger question with a lower gold environment is which strategy is more sustainable I suppose.

[Pocus]

is the SG still limited to capital? I have not checked that...

The SG problem is that they will fatigue, whereas lizards warriors can Last more rounds. But yes, the SG are really good thanks to their resilience (18 prot and a shield).

Also, the problem of Ctis lie sometime in his morale, and the LW morale is very good. Even a lizard king wont suffice sometime, if you have a morale of 10 and fight in enemy dominion.

[licker]

Originally posted by Pocus:
is the SG still limited to capital? I have not checked that...

The SG problem is that they will fatigue, whereas lizards warriors can Last more rounds. But yes, the SG are really good thanks to their resilience (18 prot and a shield).

Also, the problem of Ctis lie sometime in his morale, and the LW morale is very good. Even a lizard king wont suffice sometime, if you have a morale of 10 and fight in enemy dominion.

SG can be recruited anywhere, poinson slingers are limited to the capital (as is the empoisoner).

The difference in encumberance for the elite warrior and the SG is only... 3 I think, its not big. The Slave warrior has a lower enc though, but virtually no protection.

Morale may be a bigger issue, but I havn't noticed my SG routing all that much, at least not until they've taken some bad casualties. Of course a LK or two helps tremendously, as do the serpents.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by licker:
So what is a game starting sequence for you then?

Assuming a PoD pretender, indeps 7.

Turn 1:
* recruit Empoisoner.
* troops: LI. In the next few turns I will also recruit 12-15 Swamp Guards, rest LI, until I have ~75 LI. Swamp Guards casualties will always be replaced though, so I have always at least a dozen.
* research: Conjuration 3. [Edit: sorry, that's Enchantment 4]

Turn 2:
* Empoisoner -> prophet.
* recruit Lizard King.
* more LI (or Swamp Guards instead of LI if gold is short and resources abundant - likely as the LK is costly).

Turn 3:
* Prophet will start running circles around my dominion limits to spread my influence. May stop to preach a bit in a juicy province I plan to attack soon (to get increased income when I conquer it).
* LK preachs, unless there's a province I think I can grab without too much losses, in which case I'll attack this turn with the PoD and the LK. The PoD longdeads will stand in the centre with hold/attack closest orders. Since morale isn't an issue for them, I'll spread them into as many squads as I can to avoid unecessary losses from enemy archers. Some of them, a bit offside, may be ordered to attack rear instead of hold. LI on the extreme flank, a few steps behind the skels, with orders to fire at closest. If the PoD can raise extra skels, he'll do so on the other flank. Otherwise he'll stand behind troops (using his fear aura), or holdx5 if there are enemy archers.
* troops: more LI
* leader: probably can't afford one

Turn 4:
* If I didn't attack in the previous turn I'll do now (should have at least 50 LI now). If I did and think I can do it again, then the better. If I suffered severe losses (likely) I'll search there for a turn instead and get reinforcements.
* At this time I usually start producing Swamp Guards. When I have 12-15, I'll recruit a second commander and 1 serpent to lead them (the first commander will be busy ferrying fresh troops to my main army). The SG will replace the longdeads in the centre. When I have at least 24, they'll use 'attack closest' orders instead of 'hold/attack'. Meanwhile the PoD can start searching for sites.
* leader: Shaman

Turn 5+:
* As long as I'm confident enough to invade a new province, I do. Otherwise I search for a turn while reinforcements arrive. I try to pick the richest provinces first, or the ones next to my capital.
* In this first army, the LK will lead all the LI (as many as he can), the commander will lead the SG (as many as he can, +1-3 lizards).

Later:
* If I'm lucky enough to recruit a death 3 Marshmaster (else the PoD will do), I'll use him to summon Behemoths, and send another MM and as many Shamen as needed to lead/etherealize them.

[ November 07, 2003, 22:06: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:
for sacred serpent and his standard effect : now that we know (thanks JO) how is calculated the area, I would not advise to simply put them in with a commander in the the rear of a big formation

In my experience, the commander who leads the infantry always try to be as close to his troops as he can, and the serpents follow. I've even seen bodyguards serpents moving to the front rank and use their teeth there. Works nice for me.

[licker]

Great, thanks for the sequence... you must research pretty slowly though, especially with magic at 0.

Empoisoner + LK is 390 gold, so you'll only have maybe 110 to spend on troops in the first couple turns, that's 11 LI...

I know I prefer to start attacking as soon as I think its posible, if I were using my pretender I'd be tempted to do it on turn 2 even with your set up, assuming there was a province that looked possible. I must take more early loses than I need to though by rushing those early attacks, though if it's just the initial CG and some LI I think the additional income offsets the loses (assuming the right province is attacked...)

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Pocus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by licker:
Can you enlighten me please

What is the advantage of earth magic with forts?

I probably should know, but I don't

no, thats just that Nagot already browsed all new spells
There is a spell which strengthen your walls in earth magic.

---

I've seen it, but the main reason is earth can unveil firbolg fortresses, a not-so-uncommon site.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
Just my opinions but;

The elite warriors are the bread and butter for C'tis, just like Dom I.

I know that. They're a bit costly in the beginning though. But once my main army of LI and Swamp Guards is built, I switch to elites (still build some SG to hold the center of the line, though - until I reach Mass Protection).

Furthermore fort defense is nonsense. What does extra fort defense buy you?

One thing that may be very important, depending on the circumstances: time.

Do not plan around having your forts under siege. That is planning towards your own defeat. Take a better admin fort, so you have more gold, so you can make more troops, so you win in the field.

That's your theory. I think you overrate the extra gold you get from the high-admin forts, and you don't take into account an important thing: an enemy army that's pinned for 2 more turns outside your walls is an army that lost 2 turns - that also has a cost, and a far higher one than that extra elite warrior/turn you recruited in your fortified city. I don't plan for defeat, but if I am invaded, I want my enemy to pay for it.

[licker]

Another thought on fort admin...

In Dom2 it will only really help you in high income provinces, building a high admin fort in a province with an income less than 20 would get you at most 5 extra gc (if I understand how the new system works).

However, for strategic reasons you may want (or indeed need) your forts in low income provinces, so the admin value is not the primary consideration for those forts. I suppose the question is how much do you gain from building high admin forts in every high income province, vs. taking better def, lower design point cost, cheaper, faster forts?

Anyway... C'tis playing Miasma benefits more from high def forts than other nations do, since the effects of prolonged exposure to the Miasma domain will slowly destroy armies. Of course the enemy can try to get the C'tis domain down before he starts the seige, but that's just more time and effort required on his part.

[apoger]

>So you'd just drown your enemies in fragile units that are cheap? The advantage outside of cheapness that these guys have over other C'tis units is speed, and they arn't *that* much faster. -edit--- morale is 2 higher than SG...

It's a combination of higher morale, large numbers due to low resource cost, and most of all the damage delt by two attacks. The bite attack is almost as strong as the regular C'tissian troops spear attack, plus they get a much higher damage trident attack.

I do use the LI also. I did mention them, however they take a beating from arrows, so I tend to change over to Elite Warriors. Still they are one of the few light troops worth making.

Swamp Guard don't combine well with the other troops becuase they are much slower. Plus they can only be made in small numbers and are a shard low on morale for heavy troops. I only use them if I need a large screen of troops that can absorb missile fire.

One mistake from the post that started this theme. I do use poison slingers, but only in small numbers. Their use is so specialized that I don't consider them regular troops. I make armies of undead using reanimation. I place 5 slingers behind 50 undead. This combo works very well for busting up high quality enemy armies in multiplayer. I wouldn't waste it versus the computer. The undead are immune to poison. Enemies get jammed up fighting the undead and are forced to fight in the poison clouds. Undead losses tend to be high, but the extended exposure to poison can take a tremendous number of quailty enemy troops down. Mannikins work just as well as reanimations.


Firblog fortresses were a huge thing in Dom I, but I am finding them much more rare in Dom II. It's a shame, as they were one of the hidden benefits of earth magic.