Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[Kristoffer O]

Several spells are more difficult to encourage people to create more powerful gods.

We were surprised that players (especially competetive MP:s) created weak and ungodly gods. Feeling instead of efficiency was not a trade off they were willing to make.

The blessings, weaker scale effects and more difficult spells are all efforts to give boring MP:s some reasons to increase their gods powers.

Spells were available through magic items and empowerment, but this cost was always low compared to the economical advantage that enabled you to early conquer enemies and take their gold and gems.

Divine titles are another way to encourage people to make interesting gods, but this feature is only a PR thing. I suspect that it will make overly competetive players avoid high magic skills as it gives a hint on what their gods are skilled at. Personally I would very much like to be known 'God of this World' by my opponents.

[Jasper]

[quote]Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Several spells are more difficult to encourage people to create more powerful gods.

We were surprised that players (especially competetive MP:s) created weak and ungodly gods. Feeling instead of efficiency was not a trade off they were willing to make.

IMHO it's more a kind of "operant conditioning"; making an inefficient Pretender in multiplayer is a very Pavlovian experience. I started my first few games making Pretenders with higher magic skills, but it cost me badly and I was only able to make up for it through lucky multiplayer dynamics.

It's fun to be thematic, but it's not fun to lose because your neighbors are _twice_ as big as you. This naturally convinces most players to try to find something that is still fun, but doesn't make you feel like you're doomed.

IMHO this is largely due to the exponential growth of early dominions games, where investment in wealth increasing scales quickly compounds. This would be much less of an issue in games where more than half the provinces started off in players hands.

Spells were available through magic items and empowerment, but this cost was always low compared to the economical advantage that enabled you to early conquer enemies and take their gold and gems.

More accurately, these costs are fixed, while scale investments yield compound interest.

One way I've seen this addressed in other games is to split the points available into several pools only applicable to certain things. For example you could have a magic pool, a dominion pool, and a flexible pool that could be spent on anything.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
I have a question for the Dom I players.
I can't imagine wanting to have less than 6 or 7 in at least one magic path for my Pretender. Is it that the path requirements are higher in Dom II, or am I missing something in my equation here? The high power levels seem so very worth the cost!

In MP you can rely on items more than in SP, and stay at 4 for example. Mainly because you can generally trade with several other players the items you cant build initially. I never had a problem getting a ring of sorcery or a ring of wizardry, if I wanted one, and without any astral skill on my own eg.

Also, getting high levels in a magic field, just so eventually, one day, you can cast a cool high level spell is too much hypothetical in MP. You must be efficient somehow, and not only base your design choice on cool rpg concepts. This is not to say that sometime I dont indulge in tweaking a race toward a more roleplaying feel, but as I'm not very masochistic, I prefer often to be efficient, and not suffer dozen of gaming hours, being mauled badly by other players

The balance problems are accutely felt in MP. In SP there is no big issues, you fight only AIs. Who care if you try Ermor with +3 growth?

[apoger]

>This would be much less of an issue in games where more than half the provinces started off in players hands.


I must agree with Jasper on this. I don't like the whole one province, then expand dynamic. It heavily favors strategies that involve brutal fast expansion. I'd rather see players setting up to fight each other rather than "speed trampling unowned provinces".

It would be nice if IW could have an option to start with a "nation". Perhaps 7-10 provinces circling the capital. Force balance so all nations start will about the same gold/resources. Possibly have all starting provinces pre-searched as if the pretender had searched there.

I think this would be a good step forward for the game.

[Windreaper]

I've noticed the same thing in Dom1 MP. When I started working on Pan I used some more expensive pretenders like Molochs/Princes of Death. After couple o' MPs I had moved into simple Fountain designs (namely Fountain of Blood w/ 4blood, 2air, 2water for the big demons with huge emphasis on scales).

I can also see the trend continue Even with reduced scale effects, every single bit of income is going to help since patrolling is no longer possible. Growth +3 might not seem too big of an issue with the initially low economy boost, but I find it's going to be an issue in the longer run.

I've played the demo for couple o' days now (mostly with Machaka, love them) and with the increased importance of Astral magic I've really found no other way but to have a cheap 4astral fountain with good scales and good dominion. Albeit going for astral 4 was mainly to get +1mr for the Black Hunters . Not worth it in any way but just felt like it, gets me some important summons (like guaranteed Air magic in the form of The Harbringder).

I _could_ consider going for earth 9 with some races (Wardens of Man and Heart Companions of Arco) and hope to cast some of the higher end stuff in the end (Army of Lead/Army of Gold, for example) but it's still unlikely to be worth it in the long run.

-Mikko Heikkil�

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:
>This would be much less of an issue in games where more than half the provinces started off in players hands.


I must agree with Jasper on this. I don't like the whole one province, then expand dynamic. It heavily favors strategies that involve brutal fast expansion. I'd rather see players setting up to fight each other rather than "speed trampling unowned provinces".

It would be nice if IW could have an option to start with a "nation". Perhaps 7-10 provinces circling the capital. Force balance so all nations start will about the same gold/resources. Possibly have all starting provinces pre-searched as if the pretender had searched there.

I think this would be a good step forward for the game.

This would be cool. I don't know if I'd want every game to start this way, but I see some definite advantages - e.g. faster games. My suggestion would be that a "nation" in the sense we're talking about would consist of the capital, and every adjacent province. That way the really strategic choices come into play from basically turn 1 onwards. It also makes your castle choice very important, because a high admin castle will start you off with plenty of resources!

The downside would be trying to make sure that each player gets a roughly balanced deal with regard to starting money (how many provinces doesn't so much matter as how rich they are). Nonetheless this is an intriguing suggestion.

If any of the Illwinter team is reading this, what do you think of the idea? Do you like it? and if you do how likely is it to be implemented?

-

With regard to the whole magic-on-pretenders question, In Dom I there were very few spells that required more than 4 in any one magic path - and those that did were levels 8 & 9 particularly. In Dom II there are still relatively few such spells, but a few more than in Dom I. Getting your mages up to lvl 4 in a magic path isn't that hard, depending on the path, and getting up to 3 is pretty easy, since you have items which boost power and spells which boost power.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by apoger:
>This would be much less of an issue in games where more than half the provinces started off in players hands.


I must agree with Jasper on this. I don't like the whole one province, then expand dynamic. It heavily favors strategies that involve brutal fast expansion. I'd rather see players setting up to fight each other rather than "speed trampling unowned provinces".

It would be nice if IW could have an option to start with a "nation". Perhaps 7-10 provinces circling the capital. Force balance so all nations start will about the same gold/resources. Possibly have all starting provinces pre-searched as if the pretender had searched there.

I think this would be a good step forward for the game.

I agree. I'm not too fond of 'early rush with stupid god' tactics. Interesting idea also with the presearched provinces.

*Edit: perhaps not a bad idea with 'earmarked' (is this a swedish expression or is it viable in english as well) design points *

[ October 29, 2003, 14:44: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

[Kristoffer O]

Mikko: Just curious, in what ways do you feel astral magic is more important.

[E. Albright]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
... 'earmarked' (is this a swedish expression or is it viable in english as well) ...

It parses cleanly in English.

E. Albright

[ October 29, 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

[Endoperez]

Just how many spells need level 5/6/7 in given magic? I just ask this because you need level 6(in fire and blood) to get bless effects of Dom1, and I was wondering is there any other bonus you would get from pumping you pretender up to that level. The Living Element -spells seem to fill this gap, and there are propably others, but how many spells of these levels do we have?
It seems like we should have many low-level spells, some of a little higher level and some uber-killer spells, or just very good ones, that are costly and force you to go without something else, like a scale or two.
I think there are enough cheap spells now, but I have no idea about the medium-level spells. Are they weighted towards any particular path(s)? I'm mainly asking someone who has a spell manual...