Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[llamabeast]

No worries at all, decourcy. Honestly I think I managed to come across as a bit of an arse myself in this thread - I'm sorry about that. I normally make it a priority to be welcoming to new players. I just got a bit frustrated.

The isn't-affected-by-a-shield thing is a really weird quirk. Basically normally all single-target missile weapons can be stopped by shields, and all AOE weapons completely ignore shields. However when a single-target missile weapon is stopped by a shield it is stopped 100% - even a hide shield is completely effective at stopping boulders in vanilla. Sombre found some quirk where a particular weapon number (which I think is a different boulder, maybe from a fortress or something) breaks the normal rule and bypasses shields. So he and qm modified the normal boulders to use the same weapon number and hence also bypass shields.

So to summarise: the direct hit ignores shields, but is basically the only single target missile weapon in the game to do so. The AOE also bypasses shields, but that is standard behaviour.

Of course the preferred behaviour would have been for the direct hit to have its damage reduced by shields, but not completely stopped. Unfortunately that's not possible. The new behaviour seems preferable to the vanilla behaviour, where for example troops with Tower Shields were almost completely invulnerable to boulder throwers.

By the way decourcy, if you are interested in mods but aren't a fan of CBM, take a look at the Expanded Nations Packs linked in my signature (they're mostly not by me). Some of the new nations are pretty awesome. Generally they have as much content as the richest of the vanilla nations.

[decourcy]

We are already using a bunch of the expanded nations. One friend wants to play an all Warhammer game, but i am waiting for dark elves!

So i can blame sombre for the whole 'shield thing'?

[Redeyes]

Originally Posted by decourcy

So i can blame sombre for the whole 'shield thing'?

If we can drop hyperbole: you shouldn't blame anyone. Next time you'll know that shields do not stop boulders and can adjust your strategy accordingly.

[llamabeast]

You can indeed credit Sombre.

I think you may be waiting years for Dark Elves... unless you want to make them yourself, of course.

[decourcy]

Thanks Dad, i mean redeyes....

[Admiral_Aorta]

Admiral Aorta, Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don't want to start another fight, but if one more person on these forums sticks their nose in the air about SP entire populations of cicadas are going to disappear into this forum. Quit being snobs, it is uncool.

Aorta, SP is quite valuable because i can set up identical starting situations and see how one race does compared to another both in ease of expansion vs indeps, and in winning the game vs the ai players.

No I'm being realistic. Everyone else has already told you, but SP is only good for testing expansion. It has no bearing on balance because the AI cannot counter things that players can. Also if you dislike some of CBM's changes so much why not make a mod of your own? Dom3 modding is not difficult or particularly time consuming apart from making sprites, and that's outside the scope of what you'd be doing anyway.

[decourcy]

See, this is why i am confused about being called 'aggressive'... Why are you so angry Aorta? Did someone step on your clique?

I may mod Dom3 as i said i am an experienced modder, but i have not played enough to know what needs to be modded. Maybe some day.

[Admiral_Aorta]

lol at your posts, you're not experienced enough to mod the game but are totally experienced enough to tell others how they should mod it. cool

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by decourcy

I may mod Dom3 as i said i am an experienced modder, but i have not played enough to know what needs to be modded. Maybe some day.

What other games did you mod btw? (Just so me and my other high school girls can stalk you further. Not to check if you are a good modder or not ;P ).

[Valerius]

I saw there was some discussion on Dom3mods regarding the forge bonuses for glamour nations and I wanted to add my thoughts. I've now had the chance to play TNN/Eriu a few times and EA Van once (not yet gotten to MA Van). I haven't changed my opinion about cheap gear being important to the thug focused glamour nations (especially to TNN/Eriu where it's a central aspect of the nations and one that I am obviously very intent on preserving). But I have to be honest in that I figured the forge bonus would be limited to cap only units so I was (pleasantly ) surprised when Bean Sidhe gained a forge bonus along with Tuatha Sorceresses.

I guess the first question is, have the changes turned out to be OP? I would say (mostly) not. IMO TNN is a mid-ranking power in the EA - certainly not among the top tier of nations. They have an effective midgame but given the level of competition they can't count on excelling during that phase of the game to the degree Eriu can. Eriu is now one of the top midgame powers in the MA. Late game they still fade but based on the potential of their midgame I'd consider them an above average MA nation. Van is a different story - they are back in the blood game in a big way. As mentioned, I've only played one game with EA Van but it did confirm my suspicion that a 50% chance of B2 is better than a dousing bonus would have been since not only can you blood hunt somewhat cost effectively but you now have non-cap B2 mages - which makes a big difference in using battlefield blood magic outside of a sabbath and, like any non-cap unit, it scales. On top of that, Vanjarls are 40 gold cheaper. So while it's true I've only played one game with Van, and haven't noticed them posting a string of victories like MA Ulm, I think they can certainly take the hit of dropping dwarven smith's forge bonus to 15%. Likewise, I think Eriu can get by with just a 5% bonus on the Bean Sidhe. TNN is probably least deserving of taking a hit but they'll still have a 15% bonus on their cap only mages.

I do think gameplay should be the most important consideration in changes so if, at least in the case of TNN/Eriu, the nations aren't OP why make them? It's mainly to preserve Ulm's niche as the nation that can build a forge economy based on having the largest forge bonus and having it on recruit everywhere mages.

So, I'd like to propose a modification of iRFNA's 5% forge bonus suggestion:

Bean Sidhe: forge bonus from 15% --> 5%
Tuatha Sorceress: keeps 15% forge bonus
Dwarven Smith/Svartalf: 25% --> 15% forge bonus
Dwarf Elder: 25% forge bonus (note that unit currently has no bonus)

Some of the things I like about these changes:

* Preserves effective 20% discount for TNN/Eriu on the 5 gem items that are the bread and butter of thugging but limits to Ulm the ability to create a forge economy based on recruit everywhere mages.

* Cap only mages have more of a forge bonus but you'd have to make decisions as to how to allocate your limited numbers of these mages (and even if they are devoted to forging they can't match Ulm's discount).

* I think the progression from the skilled crafting of the Bean Sidhe to the mastery of the powerful Tuatha Sorceresses is a nice one. By the time the MA rolls around the Tuatha Sorceresses have left the scene and Eriu only has a 5% forge bonus to work with.

* Despite CBM improving them, Dwarf Elder heros are still kind of underwhelming (I always find myself wishing I'd gotten one of the glamoured heroes). Giving them a 25% forge bonus while reducing the smith bonus to 15% both fits in nicely (they are more skilled than their peers) and makes getting them very worthwhile.


On a different note, the guaranteed E pick on Ri has made them much more appealing than before (previously they were mainly useful if you needed a thug before you got your second fort built) but once you have the ability to forge earth boots you'll almost completely switch to Tuatha Sorceresses since with E boots they can match the E magic of Ri and they otherwise have better magic. I'd like to suggest giving Ri a base of A2E1N2 instead of A2E1N1. Tuatha Sorceresses still win out as being a better choice based on their superior A magic, forge bonus and the useful ability to use a crystal shield (so you can have divine blessing casters where needed) but it makes the Ri a bit more appealing.