Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[llamabeast]

The trouble with shields in the base game is that the shields stop the boulders completely, which obviously doesn't feel right.

decourcy: Since I don't really agree with any of your observations about in-game balance there's not much to be said really. If you think Agarthan hurlers are tougher than E9N9 Niefels then I'm at a loss (though if you just meant that hurlers are tougher when played by the AI then that's fair enough; any balance discussion involving the AI is pretty much irrelevant I'm afraid since it doesn't know how to play). Sorry CBM isn't for you! I will bear your observations on the hurlers in mind though, if other players also report similar feelings.

[Amhazair]

Originally Posted by decourcy

[...] but this games worst point is the micromanagement, this tactic just makes it worse, and i simply have no interest in micromanaging myself to death to win a gamey battle.

While I (and most everyone) agree that the micro is the great downside of this game I'm afraid that if you're not willing to put the 'work' in and finetune your battlefield placement and scripting to gain the biggest possible benefit from it you'll allways be at a disadvantage against someone who does, regardless of which units are brought to the table. There's just too many little tricks you can get an advantage from.

I have no opinion about the boulder throwers themselves since I have never used nor faced them, in vanilla nor CBM, but it seems to me that if careful use of a basic units like slingers solves your problem with them there isn't much to worry about, no? In any event a balance mod like CBM shouldn't be concerned about what the results are if you take "blob of unit A" and "Blob of unit B" and throw them at each other, but instead about what happens when you try to counter something the best way you know how.

Also I know I'm simplifying your argument to the absolute bare bones, just wanted to get my point across. As said, no opinion on the hurlers themselves.

[decourcy]

I understand your point and blah blah blah, and don't get me wrong i am attempting to fine tune placements and orders and what not. But, when it comes down to it, i play games to have fun, and creating 17 groups of 6 slingers to have a chance against Agartha grenade throwers, that rapidly turns into not fun. If you have to be anal retentive and obsessive compulsive to enjoy this game, maybe it is not for me.

Llamabeast, you missed all of my points. I did not say that grenade throwers are better than Niefels, i said for the price they are better. Later in the game killing the grenade throwers is do-able, but as an early game rush Agartha can send out 4 or 5 grenade throwers for every 1 Niefel.

I have found that i can play BOTH sides SP, 2 player game, and do better with EA Agartha than EA Niefel in CBM. Um, to clarify, 2 player Tir vs Agartha, and then 2 player Tir vs Niefel.

In an early age fight between Agartha and Niefel in CBM, as Agartha i would have earth 6-9 and air 3 or so, maybe some nature for regen. In the early game if Niefel rushes you with frost giants it is going to be one fairly small group. Use your pretender in battle to cast wind guide and retreat. Use 3 small waves of glaive wielding pale ones to weaken and slow the Niefels, your fairly large number of rock throwers with wind guide go to town on the Niefels and you win.

Later in the game Niefels are even less of a threat to Agartha as you are using golems and undead against them. And any EA Agartha player that does not take heat 1 is an idiot.

So, yeah, i think FOR THE PRICE, niefels are not as good as grenade throwers in CBM

[llamabeast]

Rereading my comment it looks slightly rude; sorry if it came across that way. I'll review the boulder throwers but I think I disagree with you.

[Valerius]

Originally Posted by decourcy

I understand your point and blah blah blah, and don't get me wrong i am attempting to fine tune placements and orders and what not. But, when it comes down to it, i play games to have fun, and creating 17 groups of 6 slingers to have a chance against Agartha grenade throwers, that rapidly turns into not fun. If you have to be anal retentive and obsessive compulsive to enjoy this game, maybe it is not for me.

To enjoy the game, no; to do well in MP, yes. You can play SP and not have to deal with any of that or perhaps even play against like-minded human opponents but Amhazair summed it up perfectly: if you aren't willing to fine tune your placement/scripting you will be at a disadvantage against players who do, regardless of whether you play vanilla, CBM, or another mod.

[Redeyes]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

Rereading my comment it looks slightly rude; sorry if it came across that way. I'll review the boulder throwers but I think I disagree with you.

It might be appropriate to adjust the direct hit damage of the boulder slightly. In vanilla it was at 28 damage, now it's at 34 due to heightened strength and using another base weapon for it (with 10 instead of the old 10 damage.)

Other upgrades the boulder received is greater default range for the stone hurler, from 6 to 8, and it circumventing shields (as we have both repeated.)

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by Redeyes

It might be appropriate to adjust the direct hit damage of the boulder slightly. In vanilla it was at 28 damage, now it's at 34 due to heightened strength and using another base weapon for it (with 10 instead of the old 10 damage.)

Other upgrades the boulder received is greater default range for the stone hurler, from 6 to 8, and it circumventing shields (as we have both repeated.)

Yes, Agarthan boulder throwers got better in a few key ways. Granted. Are they overpowered now, though? It would be nice to have better evidence than from a single player with little MP experience, especially as the traditional weakness of boulder throwers has been their susceptibility to clever scripting.

[decourcy]

And remember every Agartha player is going to use giant strength/strength of earth whatever. I noticed in my looking at SP vanilla Agartha, it is not just splash effect, they are better in every way.

Valerius, Don't think i am arguing with your good advice, i do spend a fair amount of time working placement, etc.
Also, i feel many players on here surrender to the demands of technique. I am an experienced gamer, and i win a fair amount concentrating on different elements of warfare.

We will see how i do in Smiting season.

[Admiral_Aorta]

Originally Posted by decourcy

I am playing a SP EA agartha vanilla at the moment, to see what is wrong with them. 9 precision hurlers that do 30 some damage, easily buffable by earth strength. That is not bad. I gained some indie mages with air, and had one follow behind casting wind guide. I am not having many problems.

I would play vanilla EA Agartha before vanilla EA Arco any day. I know, Arco has advantages but they have many weaknesses in the early game that are hard to recover from. They are the biggest rush bait in the early game.

you could have armies of nothing but markata in SP and not have problems, this is meaningless

[Executor]

Stone Hurlers have some preposterously big disadvantages.
The first one being terribly short range, meaning you can`t safely place them in any scenario and against any troops. Any sort of cavalry is just going to cut trough them as they can close the distance without the Hurlers firing.
The second one being their dreadful mushiness. There`s really no point in taking a bless for them either. Earth means nothing for archers and regen means nothing to monsters that can`t sustain themselves on the battlefield a few rounds for the regen to take effect.
And in the end they have no protection, no shield, no defense, so any combination of cannon fodder + archers will kill them.

They`re good and they have many uses now, but I doubt they need fixing. Besides, there are better nations with much better sacreds for the same gold ratio.