Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

I agree - all tankettes should be given TMGs.
In the Polish TK-3, an MG had ordinary open sights, in case of TKS it was mounted in a ball mounting, with a scope, and 20 deg of elevation. So they can't be worse, than infantry's HMGs.

(BTW: it will be another story, but Italian early tankettes should have single 6.5mm MG, not a twin).

Michal

I know. Single water-cooled 6.5mm Fiat-Revelli M.14 on the CV-29 and a single air-cooled 6.5mm Fiat-Revelli aircraft machine gun on the early production CV-33. Elevation and horizontal traverse could be adjusted and locked separately (the mount was a kind of two axis gimbal in the CV-33) very much like a typical HMG mount.

The only Italian tank to use twin 6.5mm coaxial machine guns was the FIAT 3000. The current OOB has such armament on some armored cars as well, but in reality the MGs in those turrets (which were quite big) were on separate flexible mounts and even had separate gunners.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by PvtJoker

ry much like a typical HMG mount.
in reality the MGs in those turrets (which were quite big) were on separate flexible mounts and even had separate gunners.

Which we cannot model so we use a 2x MG


Don

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by DRG

Which we cannot model so we use a 2x MG
Don

Actually, the armament configuration of those vehicles is analogous to dual turrets, so it's most accurate to model them as two separate TMGs rather than as twin coaxial MGs. The basic idea of separate gunners and flexible mounts for the machine guns is to enable the MGs to engage two separate targets if necessary. Of course the SP engine does not model that very well either, but at least two separate MGs gives the vehicle a higher chance to actually hit something than a single twin MG.

[Pibwl]

465 PZL P-11c - it was deployed to units from 11/35 only (now 11/34), so it seems redundant, because it ends at 12/35, and next unit 596 may as well start at 11/35 (now 1/36) [a book on Polish aircraft by A. Morgała]
Otherwise, it could be renamed P-11a and made available from "summer of 1935", until 9/39, with radio=91 and 188 Vickers MGs. But there's no such need IMO.

All P.11 seem too fast - max 375 km/h, so maybe it should be 4 (now 5)

597 PZL P-11c - variant with 4 MGs started to appear in late 37 (say 11/37) (now 1/36) [A.Morgała]

598, 599 PZL P-11c - P.11 could carry ONLY up to four 12.5kg bombs, so these two units should be replaced with one with #193 bombs (unless we want to create the other one with 2 bombs, or 2 MGs instead of 4).
As far, as it is known, no camouflage was used, so icon 2945 is improper (there were only experiments)


466 9TP - no sabot ammo.

470 FR AMR-35,
471 FR D-2,
472 FR B-1,
473 FR AMR-35ZT
474 FR Somua S-35 - French tanks, to be removed.

476 Renault UE - it should have top armour.

477 H-35 - as I have written, there were a couple used in 1940 for training only, so it can be left out.

However, three H-35s (or H-38s - sources differ), acquired in early 1939, were used in combat in 9/39, so it can be changed to represent these units.
I suggest full name Hotchkiss H-35. May be class 102 Cruiser tank.
It should be available in three-tank platoon in 9/39 only.

478 Humber Mk II - used only for training in 6/42-10/43, just like unit #431 Humber Mk.III. Radio should be x1.
It had also Besa CMG.

479 Rolls Royce A/C - precisely Rolls-Royce. A couple were used for training in 6/42- ?/43 (now 7/40-7/41) - they could have seen action, if Rommel had broken through at el-Alamein.
Armament should be 148 Bren AAMG and fixed Boys, it also had smoke mortar.

.

[Pibwl]

483 Spitfire Mk.XIV - I treat aircraft as a general allied support, nevertheless it's worth IMO to replace Mk.XVI with Mk.IXe, which was commonly used by the Polish - and since 4/44 with bombs.
it should be armed with two cannons, 2 x #164 .50 MG, 1 x 500 lb bomb, 2 x 250 lb bombs.
Icon should be 4618 with clipped wings.
Better picture is 30025 - which shows similar LF Mk.Vb, from a Polish 316th Sqdn.

Besides, it's worth to add Mustang Mk.III, also used by the Polish, and since 4/44 for bombing.
It should have specifications and icon like British OOB 186 Mustang Mk.1, but 4 x .50 MGs

(BTW: British Mustang Mk.I should have 4 x .50 MGs instead of 6, and 4 x .30 MGs, and speed=7, not 8 - its max speed was around 628 km/h, only Mk.III and IV had a speed over 700 km/h. US OOB Mustangs P-51B and D have speed=7, while they could have 8).


486 Panhard 178 [scout veh.] - as 461 above - not used.
Formation 455 Panhard Troop - to be removed

491 Honey Recce - in Polish units known as Stuart Recce.
Used from late 1943 or early 1944 (say 1/44 - now 9/42)
Better photo is 27739 (and of correct version)
According to Magnuski, without a turret, a max speed exceeded 70 km/h.

Same for 231 Honey Ammo Tank - name Honey wasn't known.

Formation 149 Recce Tank - Available: 09/42-12/46 needs correction as well

494 Lloyd Carrier - correct form is Loyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyd_Carrier

It wasn't armed (and as a rule, had no armour - there were kits of front and side plates only)

495 Citroen-K P17 - should be used from mid-31, also in Poland (now: from 11/39)

505, 507 Rifle Squad - picture 30211 without LMG will be more appropriate

.

[Pibwl]

We're over a half - a bigger half in addition

Riverine craft (monitors):

510 Krakow - short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG - monitors could provide indirect artillery support.

511 Krakow - weapon #139 .30 cal AAMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG (as unit 510).
However, weapon #204 is better to be renamed wz.08 (2) AAMG - it is unlikely, that monitors used newest infantry MGs, most probably they were Maxims.

Traditional sources say, that it received 13.2mm (2) AAMG in 1939, but it is not clear, if these plans were really realized. There could be created another unit with 13.2mm AAMG from 1/39 in this case.

It's worth to create a twin monitor Wilno, also in two (or three) variants.


512 Warszawa - initial armament were #67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in

Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be renamed 2x7.92 wz.08 MG - there were no wz.14 Hotchkiss used on Polish ships.

513 Warszawa - it sure wasn't armed with quad 13.2 AAMG (there was no such weapon and it could be removed from OOB). It should be #204 AAMG, as units 511, 512.
Short-range guns #55 75mm vz.02 DFG should be replaced with #33 75mm vz.97 FG

514 Warszawa - same as above.

Icon of 512-514 Warszawa should be changed to 706 (like monitors below of the same type, different from Krakow).

Is there a chance to create real icons of Krakow and Warszawa-class monitors? Now they have Hungarian icons, quite different from their real look. I could provide plans.


516 Torun - same as 513. Photo should be 30300 - now it's Hungarian Sopron.

517 Torun - same as 513 as for 75mm guns, but a photo of late Torun should be 30296.

519, 520 Pinsk - same as 513.

521 Horodyszcze - same as 512 Warszawa (#67 105mm wz.13 guns, not 4.7in)

522, 523 Horodyszcze - same as 513

All monitors from 510-523 had real speed no more, than 14 km/h (now 7 - should be 5, or 6, if we consider Renault FT tank as a lower limit)

It is unknown, why monitors of the same class 512-523 differ in Heat armour. In fact, their armour was up to 8 mm, so maybe all should have basic armour 2, as unit 510 Kraków (there were strict weight limits, since they operated on shallow rivers).


Other riverine craft:

524 Chodkiewicz - same as 513 as for 75mm guns.

It would be best to create an icon of a sidewheel steamer for 524-528 and 531-537...

525 Chodkiewicz - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with two twin #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 AAMG - it was AA ship.


527 Sikorski - weapon #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with one #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapons #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with two #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG
Full name should be Gen. Sikorski

528 Sikorski - weapons #215 .50 Quad AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with 1 x #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG

Speed of all the craft above (524-528) was also no more, than 14 km/h (now 7).
Size should be at least 6 - they were river ships, more conspicuous, than monitors.


529 Lekki Okret - it should be renamed LKU (Lekki Kuter Uzbrojony - Light Armed Boat; name Lekki Okret - Light Ship is wrong and wasn't used for anything
It should be available from around 1/31 (1/36)
It's definitely too fast (9) - max speed was 11 km/h (4-6)
Crew was 6 (10)
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-41.html)

530 Lekki Okret - there was no such vessel with such armament.
It's worth to change it to KU-30 river motor gun boat, used from 6/39 (and in hot actions), armed with one #226 13.2mm (2) AAMG, armour: 2 all around, speed=14, crew=8, suggested icon: 434
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-22.html)

533 Dickman - full name was Admiral Dickman.
Same as 513 as for 75mm guns.

534 Dickman - full name as above.
weapons #140 .50 AAMG should be replaced with 2 x #226 13.2mm AAMG (2)
Weapon #224 2x8mm wz.14 TMG should be replaced with #204 wz.30 (2) AAMG
It was used only until 1937 (now 10/39) - then it was turned into a target ship.

535 Szeptycki - full name was Gen. Szeptycki
Same as 513 as for 75mm guns.
Last date is earlier, than the first one - and it should be 10/39

536 Sobieski - same as 513 as for 75mm guns.
It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1920s)
Better photo is 30297 (or 30302)

537 Stefan Batory - It should be available until 12/31 only, for those, who want to play 1920 war (in fact it was withdrawn in 1926)
Guns are better changed to 76mm wz.02 FG, which I proposed to create when writing about artillery.
It apparently wasn't armoured (maybe it should have 1 or 2 armour - now it has 4)
Better photo is 30297 (or 30302) - now it's monitor
Size should be bigger (the same for unit 531 Pancerny)

538 Kanonierka - I suggest name Kanonierka Z (kanonierka=gunboat, they were known as Z-class)
AAMG should be changed to #219 7.92 wz.25 AAMG (or whatever AAMG replacing it), instead of non-Polish .30 caliber.
Speed was actually 10 km/h (now 9 - much too big)
Crew should be 17 (10)
Better icon is 712, with two turrets.
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-32.html)

There should be added one fine river craft, which saw action in 1939: heavy armoured cutter CKU Nieuchwytny ("Uncatchable"). It could be based upon unit 538, with armament: #025 40mm Bofors AAG, 37mm wz.18 and AAMG.
Available from 4/34 until 9/39
Appropriate icon is 679
Speed=7, crew=16
(http://flotylle.rzeczne.ayz.pl/page-21.html)

[Pibwl]

540 Wibault 7 - full name, according to Morgała, is Wibault 70C1

541 Lublin XIX [AOP aircraft] - to be removed - it was only a prototype, while we have a series of real Lublin XIIIs (besides, a picture and icon show Fokker C.V).


547 37mm Portee - such vehicles were used by the Polish only starting from combat at Tobruk, in 8/41 to around 12/42 (now: 1/37 - 10/39).
Better photo for 37mm is 27588 (current one shows 2pdr).
Maybe it should be given some SMG, eg 237 Sten for self-defence?

Needs change in formation #152, as its only unit - or maybe it should be reclassified as class 19 TD, made available until 10/43, and then it would be the first vehicle in formations: 088 SP-AT Section, 089 SP-AT Troop (earlier I proposed M10 3in as the earliest unit, since 11/43).


548 Taczanka [SP Flak] - .30 AAMG should be changed to proposed wz.30 AAMG.
I'll attach a picture of typical Polish taczanka (a current one is not Polish)

550 Maxim HMG Pl - all 7.62mm Maxims were withdrawn by the end of 1920s. Unless someone wants to play 1920 war, then it might be kept until 12/30.

There could be added .30 Browning 1919 MMG, used in Italy from some 11/43 until the end (radio=x1).


552 7TP [prototype tank] - it is a fiction category, but to be precise, a prototype with 37mm gun was completed in early 1937 (now 10/36)

553 Wz.31 [prototype tank] - icon looks nice, but there wasn't even built a prototype (and specifications were not much improvement over wz.29 armoured car). I'd remove it.

554 PZInz 130 - photo is Vickers Amphibian tank - I'll attach a better one - or something might be picked from http://derela.republika.pl/en/pzinz130.htm
Depending on sources, it could swim 7-10 km/h, so water speed 2 could be increased. However, armour was only up to 8 mm (now 2).

555 PZInz 130 - speed and armour as above

556 10TP - no sabot.

.

[Pibwl]

A bit more on artillery, mostly used by the Poles in North Africa:

401 25mm AT-Gun - should be available until 8/40 at least (the Polish Carpathian Bde took its guns from Syria to Palestine, and then lent them to the British).
Reportedly they were used until 1942 for training in the UK, but it's not worth adding I guess.

There should be added:
- 37mm AT-Gun available from some 1/41 until at least 5/42 - they were used in action at Tobruk (radio 92).
It could be copied from unit 400, but with #242 .303 rifle and maybe #88 Mills.

- 47mm AT-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until some 5/42 (unit #578 in the British oob, along with its weapon).

- 20mm AA-Gun - captured Italian Breda, available from 8/41 until 5/42 (unit #748 in the British oob, along with its weapon).

- some Italian field guns used at Tobruk, presumably 75/32 FG (unit #029 from Italy, along with its weapon, with range corrected to 203 - 12.5 km) - used in 8/41 - 12/41 at least

- 65mm Mtn Gun used in 5/40 - ? (presumably 12/40)
It could be copied from unit 409, but with #176 Berthier rifle.
I've written before, that unit 409 should be available until 10/39 only (it has a Polish rifle BTW).

Formation 338 Infantry Guns should end at 10/39, and there should be another one in accordance with new unit, named Mountain guns.

- 18 Pdr Howitzer used around 8/40 - 5/41
(unit #127 from the British OOB, along with its weapon; radio 91)

There also could be added 75mm Mk.I FG (#627 in the British OOB), used for training in the UK, but not necessarily.

[PvtJoker]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

A bit more on artillery, mostly used by the Poles in North Africa:

- some Italian field guns used at Tobruk, presumably 75/32 FG (unit #029 from Italy, along with its weapon, with range corrected to 203 - 12.5 km) - used in 8/41 - 12/41 at least

Actually they were probably 75/27 M.906 or M.911 WW1 vintage field guns, which were much more common than the new 75/32 during the whole war, but especially in 1940-1941. Too bad the current Italian OOB does not have them at all as field artillery pieces, since they were only the most common artillery pieces in Italian service (yes, I know, poor sources in the 1990s). Strangely enough they do appear as vehicle mounted guns...

Could have also been ex-Austro-Hungarian 77/28 M.05 field guns (8cm Feldkanone M.5), which equipped the Italian colonial artillery units in North Africa. No, it isn't in the Italian OOB either.

[Pibwl]

558 14TP - it is a very "what if" unit (see http://derela.republika.pl/en/10tp.htm ). It was supposed to be equipped with 47mm gun, but only on later stage, and there was no such gun available in 1939. If it would have been built, it would have #15 37 mm - unless we want to create a future tank.
On the other hand, hull armour was to be strengthened - according to (speculative) publications, even to 50 mm in front.

559 H-39 / SA18 [prototype tank] - I've already mentioned at unit 477 H-35, that three H-35s (or H-38s) were used in combat in 9/39, and their training use in 1940 is negligible, so there should be only one unit left of these two. It should not be Prototype tank class, so that they are used in a whole platoon (I suggested class 102 Cruiser tank).
Its armament should be #142 or #143 gun, not #12 with old AP round.
Icons of unit 559 are long-barrel, so more appropriate is unit 477 (icon 171).

560 75mm wz.97/25 [fortification] - if it is fortification, it should be 75mm wz.1922/24, used in coastal defence, since 1/30 (now 1/35). It was a French naval AA gun, with L/50 length, corresponding with a weapon #133 75mm L50 m.25 (wz.1897/25 was an obsolete mle.1897 AA variant, with shorter barrel)

There could be added Polish modern 75mm wz.1936 AA gun, as a Heavy AT gun, with similar performance (L/50), used since 1/38 (formations could have own C4P tractors). Picture as for now could be 36926.