Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Time for T-72

015 T-72 - AAMG should be #17 NSVT (now DShK). Speed 22 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20). Basic model was never a numerous tank in Poland - should have radio code 1.

Soviet basic T-72 has FC 15 (Polish 10) - I don't know if the difference is justified, since basic T-72 hadn't very advanced FC anyway and I haven't heard if it was simplified on machines exported to Warsaw pact. According to Russian monograph by M. Baryatynski, T-72s exported to Poland, Czechoslovakia, GDR "almost didn't differ" from Soviet ones. Those to Arab countries and India had different turret front construction.

016 T-72M - AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Produced and used from 1981 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3 and 5/2010]. In fact available until today (until around 2015 - now 12/99), though from some 1995 it may be "obsolete tank". Speed 21 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20).

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

017 T-72M1 - AAMG should be NSVT. SD should be around 4 (like Russian T-72A - it has 2x6 tubes) (now: 1). It should be available until 2020 (now: 12/96). Speed 25 is much too high (others: 20). Vision should be 20 (30), as in T-72A.

402 T-72M1 - It could be variant with some Pronit Ryś sabot rounds, mentioned in PT-91 post, available from some 1999 until 2020 (now: 1/97-12/100). Comments for AAMG, SD, speed as above. Correct pic is 29257 (now it's PT-91). It has too high ROF 7 (others: 6). Vision 30 might be OK (there were developed new passive sights in Poland...)

403 T-72M1 - further modernized variant with PO-1+ gun - to be removed, or made a hypotetical "wartime" model with better gun. It is unlikely, that T-72M1s will be modernized in Poland in other way, than converting to PT-91.

711-713 T-72M1Z - T-72M1 converted to PT-91 standard. Official (not used in practice) name of this tank is PT-91MA1, and it is commonly regarded just as "PT-91". No difference in game terms - IMO redundant.

Mineclearing tanks:

220 T-72M KMT-6 - used until some 2015 (2020). Ammo should be probably redistributed (30 HE, 14 Heat). AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Speed should be 20(21).

221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - it should be standard model with D81T 75 gun at best, available from 1986 (now: PO-1 gun, 1/97). Ammo distribution, AAMG, speed as above. SD should be around 4 (2). ROF should be 6(7).

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

Yes, we know that. It's why unit 15 has no SD but I will remove it from the M as well


Don

[Warwick]

Originally Posted by DRG

I have already removed the T-62 flame tanks from any OOB that used them.

If someone discovers they actually did exist I'll put them back in.

Don

Not sure if it is the right thing to reply here or start a new thread in the scenario forum but here goes :- Scenario 140 Follow-On Forces Attack will probably have to be modified as it uses the TO-62 units CB0,1,2. If it would be of help I could do a search for any other instances.

Regards, Warwick

[DRG]

Thanks but I always check every sceanrio before release as SOP so this will be dealt with when I'm finished work on the OOB's

Don

[Pibwl]

A little offtopic: if scenarios can be changed in newer releases, it would be good to replace in tutorial BRDM Shmel launchers (which aren't known to be ever used in action, and probably weren't used by Iraq) with common BRDM-2 Malyutka. The US wins anyway ;-)

Michal

[Pibwl]

...I was reluctant to report this, but Polish T-72M1 have FC 25 (also Slovak, East German, Iraqi and maybe others), while Soviet T-72A and Czech T-72M-1 have 20, what might be more appropriate in fact...

If we want to be overly precise with PT-91, there could be earliest model without TI, vision 30, available from 1995, radio code 1 (some 35 tanks) and basic model with vision 40, available from around 1996.

To end with medium tanks: Leopard 2

Polish Leopards have different turret armour, than Leopard 2A4 in German OOB.

020 Leopard 2A4 - SD should be definitely more (now: 1). German one has SD 2, but it has 16 tubes, so it seems too low.

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile, available from 1/112. There are no pronounced plans to buy such missiles, despite advertising in the Polish press, and if something is going to be bought, new ammunition and modernized FC are more probable... To be removed as for now IMO.

396 Leopard 2+Dozer - there's no sign of using Leopard dozers in Poland (consulted with NFoW forum).

Michal

[Pibwl]

Going deeper:

024 BRDM-2 Malutka2,
033 BRDM-2 Malutka - this should be the same vehicle, firing 9M14P Malutka-P missiles (#155), named "BRDM-2 Malutka", or better "BRDM2 Malutka-P" (vehicle's designation was 9P133). Poland didn't use early 9P122 BRDM-2 with 9M14M Malutka missiles, but it uses Malutka-P from early 70s. It carries 14 missiles (now: 12) according to Polish MoD page and Russian sources (as unit 383 in Russian oob).

There are two units currently, 033 in 1/70-12/104 with wrong armament (ordinary Malutka #145) and vision=0 and 024 in 1/100-12/120 with correct armament and vision=20. One vehicle would be enough IMO, because as far as it is known, they weren't modernized in any way. Besides, in 2000 it was an obsolete system and wouldn't be modernized at that time. Vision=0 is correct (a soldier at one forum wrote, that it was good vehicles, but "blind as a mole" at night). Missiles could be fired and guided at night, but a target had to be noticeable in sights.

I have no precise start date ("early 70s"), but according to an article in Tekhnika i Vooruzhenie 10/2000 (http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...R/PturR010.htm ), despite it was commissioned in the USSR in 1969, but first 17 were produced only in 1971, and bigger production ran from mid-72. Therefore, a realistic date in Poland would be 1/73.

By the way: unit 384 BRDM-2 MalutkaP in Russian OOB might need change of date at least to 1971 (now: 1/69) and from 10 to 14 missiles (according to a quoted page, 14 was standard, but even 18 missiles could be carried in overload).

One of these Polish units could be replaced with a new unit BRDM-1 Malutka, or just BRDM Malutka (9P110 vehicle) - used in limited number (radio code 1). Details are lacking, but it must have been used from around 1968 until around 1980 (commissioned in the USSR in 1963). Data like unit 382 in Russian oob, but according to a quoted page, it also carried 14 missiles (6 + 8 reloads). A proper icon is 2331 (though it would be worth to erase lines suggesting open hatches in rear part - it had elevating hatch. Here are some photos http://cris9.narod.ru/rva_9p110.htm


025 SU-100 - apparently weren't used in Poland in any significant number. In 1949 there existed only two "pattern vehicles" [Poligon 3/2010]. In 1955, a total number of 51 SU-85 and SU-100 is given, what corresponds with 50 SU-85 and 2 SU-100 in 1949 [same source]. In 1960 there are mentioned only 43 SU-85. Despite Magnuski in his book (from 1984) wrote in general, that 2 were acquired in 1945 and "bigger numbers of SU-100" were bought in late 40s and 50s, but he didn't give any details, and it is doubtful in a view of numbers above, from newer sources. There is no information on further import of SU-100, only of heavy SP-guns and SU-76s. So, it should have radio code 3 at best (if not be removed).

027 JSU-152 - correct name is ISU-152. Extinct from inventory before 1960 [Poligon 3/2010] (say, 1959 - now: 12/65). It didn't typically use Heat ammo - at least half of them should be AP.

029 ASU-85 - according to J. Magnuski, they were used during manoeuvres in 1963 and withdrawn some time before 1983 (say, 12/80 - now: 1/66-12/86). Needs date change of formation 14 as last unit.

For information: gun's designation in ASU-85 was D-70 (it could be changed, since Poland doesn't use D-48 gun in other applications).

030 BRDM-1 Trzmiel - could be named just BRDM Trzmiel (2P27 vehicle). They were withdrawn by 1989 (now: 12/94).

According to Russian sources (among others Shirokorad's article http://vadimvswar.narod.ru/ALL_OUT/T...R/PturR003.htm ) they carried only 6 missiles (3 + 3 reloads - now: 8 - for all countries). Proper pic is 29057 - for BRDM-1 Shmel in all countries (current one 11031 is 2P32 Falanga). I've also found correct icon with 3 missiles: 2945 (though it would be worth to erase a rear line, suggesting open hatch - it had two-part hatch, opening to sides, unlike BRDM-1 with Falanga missiles, same for 2946 desert one).

031 BRDM-1 Falanga - should be removed - Poland never used BRDMs with Falanga missiles (unless somebody finds a source). According to Russian sources, there's no sign of their export at all.

032 BRDM-2 Fal.-M1 - should be removed (as 031)

034 BRDM-2 Konkurs (9P148 Konkurs) - used from 1984 only (now: 1/79) [Technika Wojska Polskiego - Polish Military Equipment - semi-official MoD 1998 book]. Rare piece of equipment - radio code should be 1. Correct icon is 2342 or 2324.

According to all Russian sources and Polish MoD page, it carries 15 missiles Konkurs (for all countries). Its weapons is overstated - it should be replaced in the file with standard 9M113 Konkurs (like weapon 166 from Russian oob), instead of 9M113M KonkursM with more penetration (not used in Poland) [same book].

035 MT-LB/82, 036 2S12 SPM - should be removed, with corresponding formations 16, 37, 238 - Poland never used SP-mortars. First such vehicles are planned on Rosomak APC chassis, but don't exist as for now.

037 Krab - as for now, only 2 prototypes and 1 serial vehicle are used. It should be given radio 3 in fact in that period (now: from 1/107). The program has been postponed for years, probably by 2013 there will be 6 more built at last.

038 2S7 Piwonia - more proper name is original 2S7 Pion (in all publications, among others in semi-official Technika Wojska Polskiego. "Piwonia" is a Polish translation of flower name, not used in practice). Used from 1986 until spring of 2006 [Poligon nr 06/2009] (now: 1/87-12/120). Very rare piece of equipment (8 pieces). Crew was 7 (probably for all countries). I don't know if it's good idea, but the crew had RPG-7 and AK rifles as a standard for self-defence.

039 2S1 Gozdzik - they have no AAMG.

Regards
Michal

[Pibwl]

AA systems (beginning):

040 Loara SPAAG - still there exist only 1 or 2 vehicles... very rare, though might be used in combat. Radio code should be 3 - it rather won't be numerous by 2020. It should have some SD (now:0 - it has 12 tubes). Speed is officially given as 60 km/h (now: 23). Date is OK.

041 BTR-40A - there's no evidence, that this variant was used in Poland (not a mention in Magnuski's book, nor a photo of a Polish vehicle). Personally, I'd remove it. At least its availability should be limited to 1955-1979 (BTR-40 were bought in 1955, for sure they weren't used since the 1980s) (now: 1/53-12/105).
Needs change of formations nos 4, 18 - earliest unit should be #042

Speaking of SPAA guns:
415 GAZ-AAMG - there's no sign of such vehicles, nor quadruple Maxims used in Poland. Personally, I'd remove it. Its weapon would be also useless.

It might be replaced with new unit M17 - variant of US M16 MGMC shipped to the USSR. Not a common vehicle, though - some 16 were left after the war. The question is, how long they were combat worthy, and how much ammo they had. I'd say, some 1949, maximum 1952 would be a good ending date. It is known, that they were used until late 50s, but in a pure APC role.
It would need separate formations, with a gap before unit 042.

By the way: #399 ZSU M-16 in the Russian OOB should be in fact renamed M-17, since original M-16s weren't shipped to the USSR.

042 ZSU-57-2 - date 1/59 is OK

043 ZSU-23-4 Szylka - still used, probably until 1/115 at least (now: 12/105) (start 1/68 is OK)

044 SA-8a Gecko - proper name is Osa-AK. It should have 6 missiles (now 4). Used from 1980 only [Polish Military Equipment] until 1/120 (now: 1/76-12/110) (according to other sources, used even from 1981 or 1984). Icon should be 1849 - it was a variant with 6 containers.

045 SA-9 Gaskin - should be named Strzala-1 (or Strela-1 - Soviet name) or 9K31 Strzala-1. Used until some 1997 at best - not present in Polish Military Equipment book from 1998 (now: 12/104).

046 SA-13 Gopher - should be named Strzala-10M (or Soviet name Strela-10M). Used from 1982 [Pol.Mil.Equip.] (1/80) (according to other sources, even from 1988). Should be very rare - only 4 vehicles used. According to Raport 6/2000, they were to be withdrawn in 2000 (now 12/104).

047 SA-2 Guideline - proper name is SA-75 Dwina (or Soviet SA-75 Dvina). Used from 9/1959 - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...75wolchow.html (first 2) - more realistic date 1/60 (now 1/57 - their production was only starting in 1957 in USSR).
Needs change of formation 20, as the earliest unit.

048 SA-3 Goa - proper name is S-125 Newa. Introduced in 1969 (1 for training) or 1970 (operational) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/pzr_s125m.html (now 1/63). Initially twin launchers were used only (until late 1970s).

Quadruple launchers appeared with S-125M Newa, from mid-70s only (probably 1973 - same source) - there should be made two units. Initial twin launchers and quadruple from mid-70s concern all countries - S-125M was commissioned in the USSR in 1971.

049 SA-4 Ganef - proper name is 2K11 Krug. Date is OK.

050 SA-6 Gainful - proper name is 2K12 Kub. Used from 1974 only (now 1/73) - http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...ata_59_85.html

...

060 SA-13 Strela-10 - to be removed - they were withdrawn before 2005 [Raport 6/2000] (now 1/105) - see unit #46

061 SA-2 Guideline - proper name of later variant is S-75M Wolchow. Used from 1964 [http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autorze/eksport_pzr.html and Polish Military Equipment] (now 1/84) until 2001 (now 1/97).
The only difference from the unit 047 is better radar 110, but Russian S-75 Volkhov, available from 1/62, has 105. In fact, it should have more improvements over SA-75, but I'm not going to twiddle with it, at least this year...

...

074, 076 SA-5 Gammon - proper name is S-200 Wega (or Russian Vega). Very rare - only two units near the seaside (maybe radio code 3). Delivered in late 86, operational from 1987 (http://infowsparcie.net/wria/o_autor...ata_59_85.html - now 1/86)

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

AFVs to trucks

051 BTR-40 (Gun APC) - should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

052 BRDM-1 (Gun APC) - 12.7 mm MG wasn't used in Poland on BRDM-1 (according to Zaloga, only some Soviet BRDMs were armed this way). It's never seen on photos of Polish vehicles. The only armament should be SGMT (correctly named SGMB - for all countries).
Better name is just BRDM (there were names BRDM and BRDM-2), but BRDM-1 could be. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010]

053 BRDM-2 (Gun APC) - used from 1966 until now - 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010].

054 OT-62 - proper name in Polish service is TOPAS. Speed in fact is 60 km/h (now 18), it could carry 16 men (112).
In fact, it carried no fixed weapons, only troop section's PK LMG, but this is relatively minor issue (now: SGMT AAMG).

They were used only by the 7th Naval Landing Division, not as ordinary APC, so maybe it should be class Heavy Amphib, like units #417 and #703. Used from 1963 (now 1/64) [Poligon 5/2010] until some 1991 (now 12/96 - definitely not that long). Better pic is 29091 (11057 is probably BTR-50, mirrored in addition)

All formations using APC (track) should start with BWP-1 (BMP-1) only (1/73), and earlier ones should be deleted. There were no tracked APC in Poland before BWP, apart from landing units, mentioned above. There could be created separate naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

055 SKOT-2A - used as APC only until some 1991 (now: 12/104 - definitely not that long).

056 BTR-152- in bigger number used only from 1955 (now: 1/52) (there were only 6 in 12/54) [Poligon 3/2010]. Weapon used was actually #53 SGMT AAMG.

All formations using APC (wheel) should be available in 1955-1991 only.

057 BTR-50PK - Poland never used BTR-50s - to be removed.

058 OT-65 FUG (Gun APC) - proper name in Poland was just FUG or FUG D422 (OT-65 was Czechoslovak designation). Used from 1963 until some 1985 only (now: 1/66-12/95) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carried no fixed armament - only could carry crew's LMG. A second one should be added as a Scout vehicle? (like BRDMs)

059 BTR-152K - "hardtop" variant, used in Poland in small number, from late 50s, say 1959 (now 1/55 - it was produced in the USSR from 1957 only). Radio code should be 1. Armament should be SGMT or PKT AAMG.

...

062 BTR-50P - Poland never used BTR-50s. To be removed.

063 MT-LB (prime mover) - Poland definitely never used MT-LB as a prime mover - only in several special variants. To be removed IMO or changed to something else.

Apart from numerous prototypes, only 5 types of vehicles on MT-LB base were used in Poland in any significant numbers:
- WPT Mors (ARRV, which doesn't seem relevant to the game),
- TRI Hors (engineers' recce vehicle, which I'll describe later)
- TI Durian (engineers' carrier, which I'll describe later)
- basic vehicle for drivers' training
- different command and control vehicles

064 BWP-1 - should carry only 4 missiles.

065 BWP-1 - it should have the same 9M14 missiles as above, not semi-automatic 9M14P. There weren't modified in any way, especially in 1999 (the missiles would be obsolete anyway at that time). With correct missiles, the only difference from the unit above is radio and camouflage (introduced around 1990).

066 Heavy Truck - much better picture is 29169 (KrAZ truck) (Poland didn't use 2-axle heavy truck like 11067)

067 ZIS - better - more universal name seems ZiS/ZiL 6x6 or ZiS/ZiL truck (covering models 151, 157, 133). ZiS 151 production started only in 1948 (1/46). If it's ZiL, ending date could be late 80s. (12/59)

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

I hope there's a "Part 2" to that last post.......


Don