Anomaly reports

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, all carried 20 soldiers - the same for BTR-50 as APC.Michal

I have noted this down but given the volume of reports it will be well after Christmas before I get to this but for now please note the UNIT CLASS of the unit involved and consider what that UNIT CLASS main purpose is and that applying carry capacity to units that can be used as personal carriers AND gun towing vehicles requires that the carry capacity's be occasionally different. That is a game reality and when it conflicts with actual reality game reality takes precident.

Also note the carry capacity for this vehicle in the Russian OOB and that will likely be what the carry capacity of any other unit of this type is changed to. Also note that for Egypt the Russian carry capacity is what the APC version is already set to ( and what I find when I check sources ) and changing it to the same for the Artillery Prime Mover class may render it useless in that role........ right now IDK if that is the case or not but I will when I get to it but what I do know at this time I have no intention of tearing apart the carry capacity's and carry costs for artillery to make it work with APC's when for 99.9% of players the existing, albeit somewhat flawed system, works just fine and it is unimportant that there may exist slightly different capacitys from one unitclass or one OOB to another

Don

[Pibwl]

If I understand your concerns correctly, there's no problem in this case, because all BTR-50s should have increased capacity, to 120, not lowered (source: Russian books Bronekollektsya 4/2000 on the Soviet armour and Bronekollektsya special issue 1(5)/2004 on PT-76 family).

Sorry to bother you.

Regards,
Michal

[DRG]

I went though all of this three years ago with the Russians from SP Russia who produced an almost endless list of corrections for the Russian OOB . The APC BTR-50's are already 120 BUT....BRT-50PK's that have overhead armor cover and are 114. It's on the list to check the carry capacity of other nations BTR-50's this release and any that deviate from the Russian OOB norm will be corrected.

Don

[Pibwl]

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

The quoted sources explicitly say, that BTR-50PK carried 20 soldiers as well -that's why I wrote about "BTR-50" in general.

Regards
Michal

And as Don pointed out, we already had a conversation with Russian gamers who were insistent that the closed top versions (to include the BTR-60s etc) had a lower troop capacity. AFAIR, the roof and arrangements for hatches reduced the capacity of the open top version (which had simple charabanc type cross-benches)

And as for sources - despite most web sites saying "20", I'll stick with David Isby's "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army" where it is stated that passengers are 12 (18-20 in open-topped versions).

That tends to agree near enough to the Russian guys who we dealt with 5 or more years back. 14 is near enough to 12 for game purposes.

Cheers
Andy

[Pibwl]

Well, I don't know myself, I'm only basing at what Mikhail Baryatynski wrote (quite a known expert on Soviet armour). It's very probable, that capacity was 20, while the gamers may refer to actual number of soldiers carried, which depended on organization (it was sure more comfortable for less soldiers). For example, in the Czechoslovak Army, a modified OT-62 carried crew of 2 and 14 soldiers (two sections) plus platoon's commander (sketches at http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/53321 )

You've made me to search an original Soviet military manual of BTR-50, which I've just downloaded, and which says on p.4: "each APC of both variants enables carrying or ferrying [ie. on water] of 20 troops with full combat equipment or 2000 kg of different loads". In a troop compartment there were two 4-seat benches along sides, upon tracks and three longitudinal removable benches along the compartment. It is BTW interesting, that BTR-50P could carry a 57-85 gun or 107 mm RG or 3 mortars or GAZ-69 jeep atop.

Hope this info helps.

PS. BTR-60 indeed had capacity reduced from 14 (P) to 12 (PA) and only 8 in PB - it might need changes as well (possibly 9, if we include commander sitting next to driver).

Regards
Michal

[Richard_H]

Not going to get involved with this one, if only because my reference books are currently a couple of thousand miles away, and I'd have to rely on the Net. However, I must agree with Don that the original unit that started this discussion off has a primary function as a Prime Mover - the fact that it can carry anything else is a bonus.

In the meantime, I'll just keep them coming . . .

Class 31 – Off-Map Rockets

Russia 275 has Speed 25 – I suspect it’s a typo. Similarly, Switzerland 957 has Swim Speed 2.

34 units have armour. IIRC this is not required for off-map units; what I don’t know is whether or not it may affect counter-battery fire. They are:-
Egypt 563; Syria 569, 570, 573; Israel 252; China 554, 565, 742 & 743; Gulf 472 & 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; S.Korea 549 & 550; Pakistan 278 & 279; Czech 162; Argentina 585; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172 & 173; Saudi 470; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Ecuador 187 & 188.

Similarly, the following units have a Survivability rating:-
Egypt 562 & 563; Poland 162, 165, 298, 299; Syria 567, 569, 570, 573; Israel 252 & 257; PLO 296 & 297; Russia 275; China 554, 742 & 743; Gulf 470, 472, 474; Iraq 560-562; India 531-533; N.Korea 519; Pakistan 278 & 279; Turkey 919; Romania 166-168; Argentina 586 & 587; Brazil 181 & 182; Algeria 170, 172, 173; Slovakia 144; Switzerland 957; Cambodia 518 & 519; Saudi 470; Lebanon 587; Malaysia 462 & 463; N.Yemen 465; Eritrea 580; Ukraine 263 & 264; Ecuador 187 & 188; Nicaragua 185 & 186; Somalia 580.
If this is purely cosmetic, it’s probably too much of a PITA, because I’m sure you have more important concerns.

Many of the above (and others) also have a Weight rating, but unless this affects the game, I’m not going to bother.

Crew numbers may not affect off-map weapons (can’t remember) and if this is the case, non-bold parts of this section can be ignored.

Arash Platoon – Iran 492 has Crew 24, others 18.

BM-14 Platoon – Cambodia 518 has this title, even though its weapons are 240mm rockets, not 140mm. AFAIK Cambodia never had the BM-24 (240mm), so it’s probably the weapon that should be changed/added.

BM-21 Platoon – Russia 260 & 266 have Crew 20, Bulgaria 165 has 24, Poland 165 & Hungary 165 have 12, India 530 has 6, others have 18.
Bosnia 333 has weapons loadout of 40 x 3 and RoF 20, all others have 80 x 3 and 40.

BM-24 Platoon – Iran 490 & Russia 262 have Crew 24, Poland 168 has 16, others have 18.

BM-27 Platoon – Crew standard 18, Russia 261 & N.Yemen 464 have 24, Ecuador 186 has 15.

BM-30 Platoon – Russia 259 has Crew 32, Algeria 172 has 24, Ukraine 264 has 18, Ecuador 188 has 12.
CM versions (Russia 263, Algeria 173, Ukraine 263) have similar numbers, although 1 weapon less.

LAR – Israel 250 & 251 and Argentina 585 have weapon loadouts of 52 x 3, and RoF 36. Suspect loadout should be 72 x 3.
Argentina 585 has Crew 27, others have 6.

LAROM-122 – Romania 168 retains the RoF = 13 of other LAROMs, but has 80 rounds per weapon.

M270 Section – Spain 93 has Crew 12, Turkey 142 has 16, UK 159 & Greece 101 have 18, Finland 557 has 24; all others have 9.

RM-70 Platoon – Angola 585 & Uruguay 118 have Crew 6, Finland 556 has 24, others have 18.

Sakr-30 Section – Egypt 566 has Crew 18, others have 6.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 137 – SP Rocket Launchers

Taiwan 510 has Lift Capacity 130, Iraq 553 has 108. No other unit has a Lift Capacity.

Taiwan 510 has Load Cost 100. All others can be loaded onto transport.

BM-13 – Yugoslavia 322 has Crew 24, others have 6. It is also Move Class 2, others are either 0 or 3.
Bulgaria 160 has Size 6, others have 4,
PLO 280, Chad 175, Sudan 460 & N.Yemen 460 have Speed 15, others have 13.
Russia 256 has Survivability 2, others have 0.
Yugoslavia 322 has Load Cost 14, Red 91 has 20, others have 12.
Libya 580 has 127mm rockets, all others have 132mm. The oob has an unused Weapon 204, which would fit.

BM-14 – Russia 254 has Size 4, others have 5. It also has Survivability 2, others have 0.
Iraq 551 has Crew 6, others have 7.
Russia 254 has Speed 20, E.Germany 166 has 0, others have 15.
Weights:- Russia 254 is 10, Iraq 551 & E.Germany 166 12, Hungary 167 is 14, and Poland 167 is 15.

BM-21 – Mozambique 225, Tanzania 585 & Uganda 582 have Size 6, Finland 550 has 4, others have 5.
Egypt 564, Russia 255 & 257 and Bulgaria 161 have Crew 5, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 4, Poland 160 & Hungary 169 have 12, others have 6.
Green 180, Chad 176, Ethiopia 582, Ecuador 180, El Salvador 180, Nicaragua 180, Peru 180 & Tanzania 585 have Speed 15, Sudan 461 & N.Yemen 461 have 8, others have 25.
Ukraine 255 has Survivability 3, Egypt 564 & Russia 255 & 257 have 2, Syria 557, Israel 253, PLO 282, Mujahadeen 496, Chad 176, Sudan 461, N.Yemen 461, Eritrea 585, El Salvador 180, Somalia 585 & Tanzania 585 have 1, others (still the majority) have 0.
Chechnya 97 & Ukraine 255 are the only armoured units of the type.
Poland 160, Russia 255 & 257, E.Germany 169, Hungary 169, Peru 180 & Bulgaria 161 have Weight 15, Red 92 & Chechnya 97 have 24, others have 19.

BM-24 – Iran 483 & Algeria 175 have similar stats, as do Egypt 576 & N.Korea 508. But the 2 sets are different.

LAR-160 – Green 181 has Size 4, others have 6.
Israel 255 & Green 181 have weapon loadouts of 13 x 2, and RoF 18.

M-51 130mm – Poland 163 has Speed 21, others have 15.
Poland 163 & Austria 165 have Survivability 2, others have 0.

RM-70 – Indonesia 187 has Speed 25, Greece 105 & Zimbabwe 226 have 18, others have 15.
Finland 551 has Crew 8 & Size 6, others have 6 & 5. May be a different chassis though.
Poland 295 & 296 have Weight 18, Finland 551 has 25, others have 20.
Greece 105 has no top armour, others have 1.

Libya 581 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2, RoF 12.

S.Africa 320 & 321 have Crew 18 – seems a bit excessive.

Switzerland 956 has no Weapon 3 ammo.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 151 – Rocket Launcher

Egypt 561 & 574 have all the characteristics of vehicles (Name, Move Class, Speed, Size, Weight). I suspect they should be Class 137, with a .lbm change.

BM-12 – Russia 523 & Ukraine 254 have different stats from Mujahadeen 491 & Afghan 491. They also have 122mm rockets. According to www.armyrecognition.com, www.strategypage.com etc, this is a 107mm weapon.

BM-14-16 – Red 486 has Speed 1, others have 0.

Grad-P 122mm – Egypt 560 is called a ‘Platoon’, but has the same weapons loadout as Egypt 571. Should it maybe have loadout increased, and be transferred to Class 31?
PLO 279, Mujahadeen 489 & NVA 372 have Crew 5, others have 6.
The same 3 units have Speed 3, Chad 180, Sudan 454, Lebanon 575 & N.Yemen 454 have 2, others have 6.
Red 485 has 2 rockets, but Weight 1. Other 2-rocket units have Weight 0.
The Chad, Sudan and Lebanon units have 6 rockets, but Weight 0. Other 6-rocket units have Weight 1.

Haseb – Iran 480 has weapon loadout of 6 x 2 and RoF 6, PLO 278 & Lebanon 578 have double these. Local modification?

RPU-14 – Russia 522 has Size 1, others have 0.
Russia 522 has Crew 5, Indonesia 185 has 3, others have 6.
The same 2 units have Speed 1, others have 0.
Weights are:- Poland 166 has 5, Russia 522 has 1, Hungary 166 has 0, Indonesia 185 has 19.

Type 63 – Libya 575, S.Africa 317, Albania 500 & Zimbabwe 208 have Size 2, others have 1. They also have Survivability 3, others have 0.
The same 4 units have Crew 4, Syria 552 & NVA 370 have 5, others have 6.
Syria 552, NVA 370 & Sudan 456 have Speed 0, others have 1.
Syria 552 & NVA 370 have Weight 3, others have 2.

S.Africa 317 bothers me. If the S.African regulars had wanted a towed MRL, wouldn’t they have stuck with the Valkiri-5? Buying Chinese just doesn’t feel right. The alternative is that these came in from Zimbabwe for the ‘liberation’ struggle, in which case I wonder whether they’d be better off in Class 236? In which case, of course, we’d need guerilla infantry as well . . . .

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 210 – Off-Map Minelets. As with Class 31, much of this is probably cosmetic.

Russia 264 is the only armoured unit.

Syria 571 has Survivability 2, Iraq 565 has 3, all others have 0.

Syria 571, Russia 264, China 568, Taiwan 530, Netherlands 142, Spain 97, Italy 149 & 151 have a Load Cost.

Japan 240 & Finland 554 have RoF 6, all others have 1. Weapon loadouts are similar throughout the class.

BM-27 – Ukraine 265 has Crew 12, others have 18.

MLRS – Favourite Crew number is 9, but France 563 & UK 160 have 40, Finland 554 & Sweden 473 have 24.


Class 236 – Guerilla Rocket Launcher

Iraq 985 is called ‘105mm MRL’, although it has 107mm rockets.

Syria 551 has Crew 5 & Speed 3, other Grad-Ps have 6 & 6.
Syria 551 & Chechnya 125 have Load Cost 0, others have 1.