Mod: Adept's Mod (weapon, magic and monster changes)

[Adept]

[quote=Squirrelloid;785194]

Originally Posted by Adept

Updated to version 1.01
Which has nothing to do with balance. CBM alters the units directly because it preseves the weapons as distinct options with their own advantages and disadvantages, and tries to make sure the *units* using them are balanced. (To the extent it succeeds or fails is not the point, its targeting the right thing to balance).

If your efforts are anything to go by, you've homogenized jomon to the point that differences in weapon are totally meaningless. That's boring, and its not balance in any real way, and it certainly doesn't give jomon any interesting choices (this is still a game).

I feel like I'm feeding a troll, so this is probably my last reply to you. You are being massively impolite.

You seem to have an issue with using the word balance in the name of the mod. This is a linguistic fixation. My mod is it's own thing, not a rival to anybody elses work. I am familiar with the CBM, but I do not like the approach personally.

Your comment about Jomon is just dickery. If you want to be qualified to make such comments, you need to try it out.

Forge of the Ancients doesn't need to be removed. Its a Const 9 (in CBM) global spell whose purpose (like a number of other level 9 globals) is to break stalemates.

This is your opinion and preference. You are entitled to it, but it doesn't make it the only right one. I'd go into detail on what is wrong with the FotA in detail, but I have no interest in further "discussion" with you.

Your comments on the Furies and Lord of the Hunt don't merit a comment.

Your obsession with Jomon is hilariously misplaced, and I'm not actually convinced they're playable in your mod.

Like I said originally, I fully intend to play Jomon in the next multiplayer game of my group under this mod, unless somebody else insists on having it.

I really need to ask: How much MP experience do you have? Because you can beat the AI by doing horribly inept things, so 'it works against the AI' is not a test of balance. To have any clue about balance in this game you need to routinely play against the best players in the game.

This form a grashopper who has joined these forums in 2009. The arrogance and personal attacks probably give me a pretty good clue about your age.

I've played the dominions games since the original game out, and been a member of these boards since 2003. I could have called the mod anything. Your obsession with the name doesn't do you any favours.

#description "Fixes weapon oddities, addresses unbalancing magic items, global spells and broken summoned creatures."

Here's a hint about language for you young grasshopper. Balance can refer to the balance between weapons, balance between magic items... anything like that. You seem to think it is automatically about balance between nations. Dominions is complex enough that a fine balance between all the nations is impossible. Mostly one can aim for consistent pricing of skill.

For me the feeling of verisimilitude and realism is important. Jomon has a significant and historically accurate weakness in not using shields. It doesn't mean they need super weapons or boosted skills to counter that, it means it's a challenging nation which needs creative tactics and use of it's summons and indies in the war of the gods. This is a good thing.

If you have anything further to say, learn some manners. Othervise just go away.

[Deathblob]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Not that i really want to get into an argument about historicity, but historically an axe had an advantage in penetrating power, because it had a heavy head that came to an 'edge' (not actually that sharp in practice, but momentum helps) at the end of a shaft, so the Force per square inch was really high. On a solid hit it was much more likely to punch through armor than a swung sword was.

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. Are you saying a longer shaft, and a heavier head, aid in penetration?

FWIW, swords aren't historically much of a slashing weapon either. Sure, if you could bring it to bear on an unarmored target it could slash just fine, but a knight in full armor in the late medieval/early renaissance was mostly immune to a swung sword. Which is why thrusting became the dominant attack mode with a sword, because against an armored foe it makes a much better piercing weapon. And thus developed a number of swords which were focused on using the tip as a weapon rather than the blade per se. Note that a sword has a much smaller area of contact if it strikes with the tip rather than the blade, and since it doesn't get much of a momentum bonus from a swing (because its not end-weighted), its just a very poorly designed weapon for swinging.

(Similarly, the mace was more effective as a swung weapon against a well-armored foe than a sword was).

But lets be honest, the dominant weapon during the heaviest armored periods was the pike, and well-drilled battalions of pikemen dominated the wars in europe.

Swords as a swung weapon (eg, the cutlass) became more popular again as armor got lighter with the growing dominance of gunpowder.

Wow that's almost tldr.

But I think what you are saying here is that for better penetration, thrusting is better than swinging. And pikemen are dominant because their weapons have really long shafts. Is that right?

[Adept]

Here is an example of how the Skratti werewolf thug is far form extinct despite not having weapon or helmet slots.

I'm sure you all know how to do this. All you need is enough vaetti hags (which you'll want anyway for cheap researchers) to score one or two with astral. Then You need to rush Alteration 4 for Quicken Self, Body Ethereal and Luck. Since the Hag fits in the same square as the giant werewolf after two rounds of buffing your totally unequipped early game überthug looks like this:


(in the picture 2 of them are tearing apart experienced heavy cavalry).

In the other picture you see the rest of the indie lvl 9 defenders. As can be expected in the battle nobody lands a single hit on the werewolves.

[Foodstamp]

@Deathblob

I am getting the same thing from squirrelloid's post. He prefers long shafts and a heavy heads for his armor penetration. I am admittedly unlearned on the subject, so IDK if it makes a difference whether the weapon is an axe, long shafted spear, or sword. Maybe some LARPer will come along and enlighten us.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Adept

This from a grashopper who has joined these forums in 2009. The arrogance and personal attacks probably give me a pretty good clue about your age.

I've played the dominions games since the original game out, and been a member of these boards since 2003. I could have called the mod anything. Your obsession with the name doesn't do you any favours.

I have made no personal attacks. My comments are almost wholly directed at the mod. I have no opinion on you as a person. If you can't separate yourself from things created by yourself, that's your problem and not mine.

I did challenge your authority to know what balance was. Since a balance mod implicitly makes a claim to authority ("I know what balance is, because i'm writing a mod to 'fix' it"), its a relevant challenge.

How long you've played the game isn't very relevant. There are people who have only ever played SP yet played since it first came out. Expertise is something that needs to be worked at, it doesn't automatically come from doing an activity haphazardly for a long time. Gandalf, who did beta testing of dom3, can't even get the mechanics right. Gandalf has done a lot for the community (such as run a server which hosts direct-connect games), but I wouldn't use a *balance mod* written by him. (Its my impression he has no interest in balance mods, so there's no problem there).

I'd be happy to compare:
(1) Number of MP games played
(2) Quality of opponents
(3) Mechanics knowledge
(4) Significant MP game wins (>= 6 players)

ie, real measures of experience and skill.

And finally, words have meaning. When you use the term 'balance mod', people expect certain things. Being surprised when they call the mod on it not improving gameplay balance at all is disingenious. Yes, maybe i'm hung up on teh word. I looked at this thread *expecting* a balance mod. I didn't find one.

[Deathblob]

Thanks Foodstamp!

You are obviously an expert on penetration, having joined these forums in Oct 2006, whereas I only joined in May 2011. I am just a very young grasshopper. A nymph, in fact.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Adept

Here is an example of how the Skratti werewolf thug is far form extinct despite not having weapon or helmet slots.

I'm sure you all know how to do this. All you need is enough vaetti hags (which you'll want anyway for cheap researchers) to score one or two with astral. Then You need to rush Alteration 4 for Quicken Self, Body Ethereal and Luck. Since the Hag fits in the same square as the giant werewolf after two rounds of buffing your totally unequipped early game überthug looks like this:


(in the picture 2 of them are tearing apart experienced heavy cavalry).

In the other picture you see the rest of the indie lvl 9 defenders. As can be expected in the battle nobody lands a single hit on the werewolves.

Why are we using indies as a measure of balance? Especially indies vs. *4 turns of mage recruitment* which requires two 1/4 hags (so we're looking at 18 turns of recruitment time on average to even see that), by which point there aren't going to be any indies? (Ok, your second fort coming online is going to speed that up, maybe, but indies are mostly gone by turn 12, you'll be lucky to have this ready to go before then).

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by Deathblob

Thanks Foodstamp!

You are obviously an expert on penetration, having joined these forums in Oct 2006, whereas I only joined in May 2011. I am just a very young grasshopper. A nymph, in fact.

I don't know that my forum experience has helped me with penetration at all. That is why I was hoping someone with more real experience on the subject would come along and tell us which implement is best for penetration so the balance mod can be modified accordingly. If using a long shafted spear actually results in more penetration, it would be useful to know.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

I don't know that my forum experience has helped me with penetration at all. That is why I was hoping someone with more real experience on the subject would come along and tell us which implement is best for penetration so the balance mod can be modified accordingly. If using a long shafted spear actually results in more penetration, it would be useful to know.

There is such a thing as too much penetration. It isn't always a good idea to break through protection.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

There is such a thing as too much penetration. It isn't always a good idea to break through protection.

I don't understand how too much penetration could be a bad thing? Are you afraid a long shafted spear would get stuck? If that is the case, maybe a long shafted spear could be used as a high penetration weapon that is rendered useless after the initial thrust. This could be achieved by using the #charge tag or something.