Official Vanilla vs CBM debate thread

[Meglobob]

Originally Posted by Festin

Endgame Diversity may be a very nice mod, but I really hope it will not be included in CBM.

I on the other hand (once its been sufficantly tested) really hope it gets included in CBM because it solves once and for all the tartarian problem.

The reason why its all tartarians in the endgame is because there is really no other choice, with the endgame diversity mod the tarts will get a much deserved rest well players explore the other options available to them.

Making tarts insane was a mistake on the part of the developers who have admitted, that they don't really get the endgame of dominions. Making the tarts insane just results in wasted turns well they sit around doing nothing, rather then ending the game. When you reach turn 70+ in MP you really want the game to end (preferably in some massive, impressive battles) because the turns become massive and anything that slows the fighting down is bad.

[NooBliss]

What about undoing the shattered soul, then? Now that there's alternative and all.

[13lackGu4rd]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

What about undoing the shattered soul, then? Now that there's alternative and all.

you'll still need to tone them down, without shattered soul you eliminate much of the risk with acquiring tarts. also, the other options in the end game diversity mod are alternatives however tarts are still very much superior, just cause more of a headache. thus by default lessening the headache makes the other options less viable.

[Quitti]

Well, there was/is a mod around that changes the tart costs to some reasonable levels, and you can choose which tartarian to summon (though Monstras and monstrums are still nearly useless). Add in a removal of shattered soul and they would make sense. 12d gems (+gor+healing) for a SC is way too low at the moment, but Shattered soul makes them slightly more reasonable at that low cost. Heck, wraith lords cost 40 gems and most tartarians are better in every sense except being immortal (which requires quite different planning before the game).

I simply prefer CBM over Vanilla because it opens up more midgame and early game options, and overall game quality is very much better (no gemgens, nations more balanced).

[Fantomen]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

What about undoing the shattered soul, then? Now that there's alternative and all.

Shattered soul is thematic, fun and balancing. No reason at all to take it away.

Even with the endgame diversity mod implemented, tartarians is one of the most powerful alternatives. For nations strong those paths (death and nature) it will probably remain the goto endgame SC. Which is alright, tartarians are cool.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm not sure I'd call shattered soul either fun or balancing.

Its frustrating, not fun.

Being overpowered 75% of the time and useless 25% of the time is not balanced.

Now, it certainly is thematic... I just wish they didn't destroy temples, or at least I had a chance to move them guaranteed their first turn of commander-hood. Because that's really frustrating.

[RadicalTurnip]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I'm not even sure what 'realistic' means in this context. As long as things follow rules, they're equally good fantasy.

What I mean is there are reasons not all magic is the same, Haruspex isn't in the same school as Dark Knowledge, and it costs 1 less gem, but requries one higher path. The game isn't made to be "completely balanced."

In a high-magic fantasy world with intelligent smiths and spell-makers, there's a good chance people would find ways of creating things that generate quintessential magic items (gem-gen). While it's not certain, but it's likely.

Basically, to me, CBM seems to be a (Conceptual) Balance Mod, while the original game's focus is more toward flavor (while of course trying to keep it from being overly unbalanced).

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by RadicalTurnip

What I mean is there are reasons not all magic is the same, Haruspex isn't in the same school as Dark Knowledge, and it costs 1 less gem, but requries one higher path. The game isn't made to be "completely balanced."

Trade ease of casting with cost? Sounds perfectly reasonable and plausibly balanced.

In a high-magic fantasy world with intelligent smiths and spell-makers, there's a good chance people would find ways of creating things that generate quintessential magic items (gem-gen). While it's not certain, but it's likely.

That depends on what the laws of magic are. If the laws of magic make it impossible, it can't be done. It feels like an artifact level of accomplishment - distilling raw magic should be *hard*. The accomplishment is cheapened considerably if you have hundreds of them.

Basically, to me, CBM seems to be a (Conceptual) Balance Mod, while the original game's focus is more toward flavor (while of course trying to keep it from being overly unbalanced).

Where does CBM ever lose flavor? Heck, how do you 'lose flavor'? Flavor is whatever you make it. Anything can be justified post hoc, and if the person telling the story is good, it'll sound just as good or better as whatever flavor might have been trampled on to get there.

There are plenty of things in the base game that don't make sense conceptually. A lot of the handling of resources is confused, for example. So claiming vanilla as a paragon of flavor is doomed to failure.

[Festin]

CBM for me is just that - mod that focuses on balancing to make as many existing options available as possible. Endgame Diversity is fan-made content, an while I have nothing against it, I do not want it included in games by default.

As for tartarians, it actually would be nice to try a game where they are completely banned. I strongly suspect that the game would lose next to nothing in terms of fun, since SC-centered endgame is quite dull anyway, and probably gain something - by prolonging the midgame, which is fun, and by encouraging diversity.

[RadicalTurnip]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Where does CBM ever lose flavor? Heck, how do you 'lose flavor'? Flavor is whatever you make it. Anything can be justified post hoc, and if the person telling the story is good, it'll sound just as good or better as whatever flavor might have been trampled on to get there.

There are plenty of things in the base game that don't make sense conceptually. A lot of the handling of resources is confused, for example. So claiming vanilla as a paragon of flavor is doomed to failure.

I wasn't necessarily saying that CBM does lose flavor, I was saying that the focus of CBM is balance, while the focus of vanilla is flavor. Obviously, CBM is based on Vanilla, so a lot of the flavor of the original is retained. As I previously stated, I haven't played with CBM, so I don't know how much (if any) of the flavor is lost.