Units with stupid weapon choices

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Another weapon that comes to mind would be a sort of "war spade" (No, I'm not married to the name). Imagine a broad metal spade that's been reinforced and sharpened all around the edge, with a metal t-section crossbar, a long metal-shod shaft, and the classic pitchfork handle. Kind of a cross between a spear and an axe--but not in quite the same way as a glaive.

Might look something like this: D=====ID

Something like that, in the hands of an Ancient Lord, might be a good deal more hand effective and "wieldy" (not to mention thematic) than the axes they currently use.

Zen staff, anyone?
Be careful - they aren't based on China! :P

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Illuminated One

Iirc in WW1 trench warfare (which should come very close to Agartha tunnel warfare) flails and knifes were preferred to bayonets (= spear).

Prrecisely! Short axes and similar weapons, too. Only I seem to remember that Austrians used spiked maces, not flails.
By the way, the only good description of fight in Prof. Tolkien comes from exactly this experience - and in that fight spear gets used exactly once - as a thrown weapon.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

P3D, you're right about the spear directing more force along it's single point, but one advantage the trident's three points gives is stability, so that it's easier to center an attack. The trident probably wouldn't be able to penetrate the armour as often, but when it did it would make a much wider and more ragged wound--thus more blood spilled, with a greater chance to clip an artery or puncture an organ. The wound would also be considerably harder to treat medically. Another advantage is-and this is specifically because it doesn't go as deep-a trident would have less of a tendancy to get stuck in an opponent.

I think giving them 7 damage is a bit much, however.

Trident stats, in my opinion, should be more like Dam 4, +1 att/0def.

Something like this, probably. I would say that they should have more Defence than attack - they are quite usable to parry enemy strikes and especially thrusts. Actually, Chinese sometimes used tridents specifically against spear-armed enemy infantry.
Also, I'd say that spears should have higher damage overall... Plus probably higher Defence. It's quite easy to fight with one against sword and damn difficult other way around!
As for pikes vs longspears question, I'd say that pikes are used two-handed. Though I would prefer to give them lower base damage and charge bonus as they were quite often used offensively... But that's just me and there was another discussion on this.

[HoneyBadger]

You're right, Wrana. A trident could probably do with a +1 to defense, as well as attack. I was thinking of their 1-handed use, where they might be a bit unwieldy to defend with, but I forgot the game makes them be used 2-handed, so in that case, they definitely should get a defense bonus.

It's too bad there's no mechanics set up to allow units to switch between 1 and 2 handedness for certain weapons in the game. Although I suppose it could be modded in as a shapechange, in certain (non forged item) cases.

[Agema]

Tridents should do more damage than spears because tridents are wielded with two hands, not one.

* * *

Partisans were not really battlefield weapons after pike warfare became obsolete. A very similar weapon called a 'spontoon' was on battlefields until the 19th century. However, whilst it would be used as a weapon where necessary, that was not it's main function. Some were given to troops guarding the regimental colours, and were ceremonial more than anything else. Sergeants had them as their symbol of rank (like officers had swords), and used them as a signalling system to give instructions to troops.

[HoneyBadger]

Agema: Tridents aren't difficult to weild in one hand. Easy enough to catch fish with them, anyway, or even throw them over short distances. And gladiators typically used them with nets. It's just a game convention, not something that's true in real life.

The big
polearms that evolved from them would be 2 handed weapons, but not the trident itself, which would often be shorter than a spear, and could be used either 1 or 2 handed.

You're right about them being mostly ceremonial, but that's a bit beside the point, which is their extraordinary longevity in the face of obsolescence. They were officers' weapons (master sergeants' weapons, anyway, approximately, or whatever the equivalent rank would have been), and were certainly still used *as* weapons, when the necessity arose--they examples I've seen, the ones that actually saw combat, weren't blunted or faked. And I suspect there was a good reason such weapons were chosen as "symbols", that had atleast something to do with them being useful in a pinch.

[Agema]

If you want to make a 1-handed Dom3 trident, mod yourself one. I'm just saying they're 2-handed as exist in game, and deserve stats to reflect that.

You mean, an extraordinary longevity based on the fact such polearms were no longer primarily used as weapons. A Napoleonic soldier could bash in the head of an enemy with a large rock he picked up, and you could equally enthuse about the extraordinary longevity of large rocks in the face of obsolescence.

[Poopsi]

Large rocks have an extraordinary longevity as weapons, as a matter of fact. And I'd question whether they are obsolete; they fill a niche spot, but are extremely effective and cost-efficient in it.

[Ynglaur]

Rifles can be surprisingly well balanced when it comes to bayonets. Then newer M4 carbines aren't that great, especially when you throw on combat optics, laser sights, flashlights, etc., much less a grenade launcher (M203). But even the now-venerable M16 can have a good combination of blunt and edged attacks, and can be surprisingly nimble.

The problem in trenches in terms of hand-to-hand combat is definitely one of lack of space. I, too, think the Agarthans' use of short swords makes a lot of sense thematically.

[Poopsi]

Rocks also have a good combination of blunt and edged attacks, are surprisingly nimble, and can be used in tight places