Why Dominions 3 isn't just another computer game.

[Monkeyfinger]

That actually is pretty funny, but only because people were getting butthurt over something that doesn't actually affect D3 or its forums in any way.

If the developers pulled something like that in response to someone complaining about a game feature or maybe a lack thereof, that wouldn't be funny, that would be retarded.

[Gandalf Parker]

Monkeyfinger said:

"Opposite"? what are you saying, that when people suggest something that needs to be fixed or changed the developers do the exact opposite of what they said out of spite or something?

Not at all. But you notice how you changed the tone just now?
My comment was about your support of "complaining", which you have switched to "suggest". Quite a difference and with quite different results as far as I can tell.

Other options would be explain, demonstrate, request, or "interest them in". All slightly different than "complain". There are many threads here already which explain why the usual customer logic does not tend to do well. Reading up on why Shrapnel is not one of "those" companies, and why Illwinter is not one of "those" game developers can help smooth the path. Everything has its pros and cons. I rather like things this way.

[Ballbarian]

"Opposite"? what are you saying, that when people suggest something that needs to be fixed or changed the developers do the exact opposite of what they said out of spite or something?

The following might help answer your question and add some perspective to what Gandalf is trying to say.

A fairly recent post by KO:

...but I do actually dislike to work with nations when I remember people complaining about them. It gives me a sour feeling, and since I work with things that makes me happy I avoid working on nations which make me feel unhappy.

Things that makes me happy are when people say they like the feel and mood of a nation and that they feel that it is sad that it is not more strong in this department or that area. This gets me inspired and makes me think more about the nation instead of less, and will probably have the result that I will add stuff.

A discussion on how cool KoA are will likely make me feel that they are cool, look at them and think that they are too uncool in the game. A discussion where someone complains about the fact that they cannot move about and are underpowered compared to dada.. will just make me leave the discussion and look at a thread talking about how cool bane spiders are, even if they can only be recruited at home. I will then silently agree and think about what can be done to the banespiders, including new graphics and a set of new and cooler powers to compensate.

Sorry about the rant. I had too much coffe last night and woke up after four hours of bad sleep.

I think that it is about people and how you approach them. For some reason when folks communicate through a keyboard, they tend to lose some of their natural ability to deal with people. If I were constantly bombarded with this sucks & that sucks about whatever project I might be working on, I guarantee you that I would quickly lose interest and go do something else.

There are many different ways to say many different things. I am sure that there are times when something I write here on the forums comes across entirely different than I intended. Such is the web.

[HoneyBadger]

I think-atleast I hope-that what Gandalf means when he says the word "complain"-what was really happening was that people were viciously demanding features that would have been difficult and time-consuming to implement, while calling the Devs names and questioning their integrity.

Atleast something that went beyond simply requesting a new feature, or suggesting that a current feature might be more efficient in a different incarnation, in a polite and respectful way.

[HoneyBadger]

It's funny, and moving, how Gandalf-having been a soldier for many years-is more a man of peace and diplomacy than I am, when it comes down to the ugly bits.

Quite inspirational.

I wonder who's going to be first in line to complain about how "sappy" or "saccharine" that particular sentiment is?

[Monkeyfinger]

Well, I didn't notice that kind of belligerence from the people complaining about the issues you talked about in the first post. Unlike Gandalf I still call it complaining even if it's civil, but I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. So basically Gandalf and I define "complain" differently and our whole disagreement is a semantics argument.

Man. I hate it when that happens.

Under my definition of complain KO comes off as being unable to handle criticism, but then, he was probably referring to people being dicks about how they voiced their problem too, wasn't he? That post just doesn't tell me much out of context, I can't make anything resembling an accurate judgment based on it.

I hate that too.

[Tifone]

Wow - what a thread. It starts with compliments to the game and the works of devs and ends up like this. personal flamewars and the same complains we've heard 1 million times. uff

[HoneyBadger]

It troubles me too, to be honest. It's one of those issues that is ambiguous enough that you want to pick their brains, and ultimately you can't. And the forum by this point is so big, how can you go back and right old wrongs? Even if they're not your responsibility. Heck, they might have been said about a nation back in Dominions 2, or further, for all we know. Kristoffer might even be remembering wrong about particular nations and what may have been said. Ofcourse, if he reads this post, he's going to decide we're all dicks anyway-I haven't, recognised and by choice, acted any more noble than anyone else.

I don't particularly enjoy writing posts like this one, you know? The sentiment's definitely there, I love the game, but inevitably it causes problems and upsets that could be avoided, and I personally don't feel it should be necessary to come out and praise the game in such an elaborate, staged way. But what else is there to do?

I don't know what the problem is, I don't know how much of it is my responsibility, and I don't know how to solve it, but Dominions 3 has been good to me, and I want to give something back, and I'm broke, so I give of myself. Not as a bribe for new features-I'm not a whore, thank you, whatever you might think of me-but because appreciation is due.

[JimMorrison]

Wow, what a mess. O.O

This is why they invented the public baths you know, it really has nothing to do with cleanliness and sanitation.

It's because with just a towel, there's nowhere to hide a weapon - and it's just too hard to become uncivilized with so much steam in your lungs. It's genius, pure genius I say.


The odd thing I see about the attacks, is that Badger isn't saying anywhere that this is the most awesomest� game ever, with no flaws, and no other game will ever surpass it..... Just trying to remind the current wave of superficially angry sots, that they are unlikely to (if they enjoy Dom at all) find another recreational outlet that is anywhere near as cost effective. And he got a bit rapturous on the way, so I can see how people might find that upsetting or reproachable, and have this great urge to criticize. o.O

Definitely not the most eloquent Badger post I've ever seen, a bit of limp is like chumming these waters.


Oh and Monkey, it amuses to me no end that you characterize KO as being "unable to handle criticism". Guess what, it doesn't matter, or rather it does, but it's YOUR problem, not his. See, making, fixing, and upgrading this game is a hobby to him. He does it for fun. You're not paying his bills, you're just a sideline that helps him justify the absolutely immense amounts of time he gets to spend poring over code. If he's sensitive, it's because he's not one of those goons at a major studio, who works until their fingers bleed for fear of being whipped and/or fired if their particular piece of assembly-line programming assembly doesn't come out on time or doesn't make enough profit for some jerk who knows -nothing- about what makes a game have a lasting perception of value. Maybe at other companies, you have to be the squeaky wheel, because if you aren't, someone else is. And in those cases, you are going over the heads of the actual programmers, to someone who will tell them what to do. Then you can be as brutal to them as you want, because the person who actually orders the fix, is not the one whose code you are bashing. It's not like that here. You don't clog the forums with posts that all say "Illwinter we want justice!". You just say, "hey Kris, wouldn't it be better like this?". And you get an honest answer, you either get what you want, or you get the most polite no you'll ever receive in your life.


Just to reiterate, for those with a short attention span - JK and KO are not your clients, you are not some corporate consumer who gets to feel special by virtue of whose pockets you are lining. These two fine gentlemen are seriously more like a couple of friends. Internet friends that you aren't incredibly close to perhaps, but still, just a couple of cool guys who you share some interests with. They're not here to get rich, and they've already made enough money with Dom to tell you to shove it if you can't show them respect and kindness.

That is, if someone like me or Badger doesn't tell you to shove it first. <3

[Gandalf Parker]

Exactly. He seemed to be saying.. we have lots of whiny threads lately, so lets have one to balance the scales abit.

I know that people come in here thinking (in a standard way for some places on earth) that "you will put up with my rudeness because I am a customer". I dont so much mind that in new people. I try to explain things altho we do have some oldtimers who still cant seem to shake that notion.

If you read about Shrapnel here then you get some idea why they arent just another money-grubbing conglomerate trying to get rich off of you and developers. In fact, they were basically started in response to such companies.

If you read about Illwinter here (which isnt much) you start to get a feel. Searching back thru the devs posts you will see responses where people have tried to use money as an argument and received the answer many MANY times that the two of them have day jobs. What they do for us, they do for fun. If you want them to do, then make it fun. If you want to blow it, make it unfun.

Now neither of these companies are the type to say "why should we do anything since you already bought the game". But keep in mind that is true none-the-less. What we want of them now (forums, support, more patches, more upgrades, more documentation) are things they are doing for free and fun. I only want that fact to be apparent in the way people ask.

Mostly because I have SEEN some of the things I most wanted put into the game fall on the side because someone jumped to my cause who changed it from a request to a demand with insults sprinkled on top. There are some people here that you never want on your side when you want something added to the game.