Mod: Ermor - The Restoration - Draft v0.75

[Agrajag]

Just wanted you to know I'm rooting for you

[Edi]

I moved the thread here to the MAps & Mods forum because the place is more appropriate.

The mod has been updated to v0.75, so it's still a draft.

Changes

• Renata increased gold cost and changed magics (190 gold, WN, 100% WSN, 20% WSDN)
• Renatus increased gold cost and changed magics (190 gold, WD, 100% WSD, 20% WSDN)
• New graphic for Shadow Vestal
• New unit: Shadow Priestess (capital only)
• Ermorian Cultis changed to be thematic for the Restoration, copystatted base Ernorian Cultist and altered description.
• Lictor and Censor are no longer capital only
• Gem income 2D (Temple of the Dead), 2S (Temple of the Spheres)

I would like to hear feedback. Especially on the Shadow Priestess, because that one definitely needs a review for balance issues. It's very much an echo of the Dom2 Shadow Vestal, but there need to be ways to make sure it isn't abusable.

[VedalkenBear]

Downloading now and going to take a look at it, Edi. I'm actually surprised that you incorporated so much of my feedback/suggestions.

Initial Reactions: First and foremost, if you're going to keep that extremely high base encumbrance on the Shadow Priestess, say something about it in the fluff. (I recall the Nightmare Onyx Amazon unit having a fluff reason for their high encumbrance.) It's something disconcerting to find out.

As for the Shadow Priestess, as a whole, I didn't try to 'kit them out' in the short time I had, but my initial impression would be to drop their random paths (they give you nothing that the Grand Thaumaturgs don't, and they're both capital-only), reduce their cost to about 160g (maybe a bit lower), and make their encumbrance something 'normal'. Maybe not 'undead' normal (0), but lower than 10 base.

The Renata/Renatus I find overcosted; I would recruit enough of them to give me some variety, but I would never rely on them. I compare them to the Master Shugenja and Onmyoji of Jomon (i.e., similar LA mages), and find that at 160g, they would have (almost certainly) one less path than the Jomonese mages, but would be sacred. This seems a fair trade-off. I'm still not sure I would use them (the Thaumaturg is such a good priest-mage on so many levels...), but they'd be at least a better buy.

Anything else 'in particular' you want me to look at?

[Edi]

Thanks for the comments.

The base encumbrance on the Shadow Priestess is an oversight. Looks like a I plain forgot to add the #enc command and missed it when I looked at the mod in-game, so it defaults to 10. Should be 1. You can fix that by just adding #enc 1 to the Shadow Pirestess unit in the mod file, it'll retroactively fix your games that use the mod.

As far as making the Priestess and the Grand Thaumaturg competitive with each other, what about upping the base D1 on the Priestess to D2 and a cost of around 180? That's a D2 mage with possible more magic paths, low base encumbrance, fast mapmove to shuffle undead armies around, massive undead leadership and immortal to boot, sounds fairly good to me that way, but I worry about making the GT too unattractive. Though the GT is the only one who can get Air and H3, and has the highest potential for Death and outright highest Astral.

The unit costs are something I just basically drew out of a hat, which is why I need feedback such as yours. I suck at the cost analysis side.

The idea with the Renata and Renatus was to give the nation easier access to Water and Nature magic, but not too high levels. They can get access to both Voice of Apsu and Haruspex in addition to Dark Knowledge and Arcane Probing, so chances to diversify magic later in the game is increased. The Renatus also gives a chance to get D2 mages without requiring a Grand Thaumaturg. The Thaumaturg is indeed an excellent mage and I'm having hard time pinpointing where a sweet spot of balance so that all of the mages would be usable, because there is so much overlap between the Thaumaturg and the Renatus.

Would these ideas work?

I would also like to get feedback from others who have tried this mod.

[VedalkenBear]

The Shadow Priestess is a thug chassis, pure and simple. You probably could remove all but her holy magic, and keep her cost the same, and she'd be 'balanced'.

She's Immortal and Ethereal, and you've given her quite easy access to both Astral and Death magic. This gives quite a few options:

1) Trick her out, Dom2 VQ style. Consider that with easy boosters, she can do:

Soul Vortex
Personal Luck
Astral Shield
Attack

Oh, and you can throw in the Holy spells too. If you give her 2D innately, then the chances go up quite a bit that you'll have Priestesses who can throw all of the above with _no_ boosters. Considering the fact that they are Immortal, that sounds pretty good.

2) Immortal Nether Darters. That's rather rude. It all depends on whether you want artillery or melee.

3) Take a Blood Pretender and make them all Assassins. Considering that BE Ermor _should_ have access to Apostacy, this can make them like Hellbind Heart/Charm Assassins.

As far as costs go, I always look at extant costs and compare/contrast. My approach to this aspect of design has been derided here in the past, so I don't want to retread old ground.

I'm pretty sure 160g would be a 'fair' price for the Renata and her brother. The diversity is nice, but that's about all they offer. I guess the best you can say is that communions could boost their magic levels to open more battle magic. But really, with every single Thaumaturg made to throw Nether Darts and being able to bless themselves, there isn't a whole lot you need, there, IMO.

Boiled down: The Shadow Priestess as is seems far too cheap for her possible utility. The Renat clan is a bit too expensive, for the same reasons.

[Edi]

Okay, nix on 2D then. Keep 1D, have 50% D, 50% S and nix the 20% SD and keep H2, price at around 200. That'll still make her a thug chassis, but not quite as brutal as she would be with 2D and the 3 partial randoms.

[VedalkenBear]

That certainly would go a long way towards mitigating the 'naked thug' issue.

So overall they are 25% DHH, 25% DSHH, 25% DDHH, and 25%DDSHH, hrm? That seems all right.

I'll look into a Bless strategy for them later today. I am a bit concerned at the attritive power of the Darters, especially if you have one carrying a Banner of the North Star (or scripted to throw the spell), and then retreat. That looks like an awful amount of pain that's pretty renewable.

Edit: Bless strategy I have so far looked at is E9S9 with a Sphinx. Please note, I am running CBM.

The Shadow Priestesses are definitely good at 200g and the last-mentioned stats (I took the liberty of editing the mod file... hope you don't mind!). I basically researched to Enchantment-3 (for Astral Shield) and Alteration-1 (for Personal Luck), and scripted the following:

Astral Shadow Priestesses - Holy Avenger, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Attack (none)
Non-Astral Shadow Priestesses - Unholy Blessing (holy-2 version), Holy Avenger, Frighten, Attack (none)

The Frighten is really just a placeholder for a turn. With Reinvig-4 and a melee encumbrance of 2, it's not like it's going to hurt you to throw it.

4-6 working together can easily take an Independent-7 province, 'naked'. Sure, you lose 1-2, but they come back and it's not that much of a setback.

Hrm... I'll have to check replays, but I don't think that Holy Avenger is actually triggering with them. Am I misunderstanding how that spell is used?

Oh, and my first Renata I recruited was W3N1. Do you _really_ want them to have access to Clams that easily, no matter the probabilities involved? While that's pretty rare, IIRC, 1/3 of them will be WWN, with only needing a Bracelet to Clam, and if you play with Luck (as I do), it's not like you're not going to have Water and Nature gems by the time you're able to make the bracelet.

[Edi]

I don't mind you editing the mod file and testing things out at all.

What do you mean about the attritive power of Nether Darters? Do you mean throwing a bunch of the priestesses at the enemy with a chaff screen, Darting them and then coming back for more after they die (assuming friendly dominion)? Okay, that's something to look at, but it's not much different than tossing a horde of thaumaturgs at them, since you can get those anywhere for cheap. 5x Darts and run is still brutal.

The clam issue I did not think of. That can be a problem, but I don't see an easy way around it unless a change to the randoms is made so it's 100% SDN random and the 20% WSDN staying as is. That way only 20% of them are W2N and need a bracelet before clamming. Can't remove the fixed Nature without screwing up the thematics and even changing the random changes the symmetry between the Renatus and Renata, but as you said, it can be a serious balance issue. Astral nation, undead reanimation, immortal thuggable commanders and easy clams all in one package would be a bit much, I suppose.

Thanks for the analysis!

[VedalkenBear]

Yes, you took my meaning on the attrition issue. I bring it up because immortals have these kinds of issues.

Regarding the Renata, I think you have a good idea on how to 'deal' with them. You can change the Renatus as well to be more 'flexible' at the same time. Also, with the change you propose 5% of Renatas would be WWN. They'd have a 20% chance to get one of WSDN, with an equal chance of each of those. 0.25*0.2=0.05

I don't mind the analysis part at all. I'm glad to be of service.