Hidden in Snow

[Zath]

How about this line of reasoning...

The mage is the only valuable unit produced by Hidden in Snow. This is evident when the Unfrozen are compared to other summons of the same level, such as trolls and ghosts.

Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

Disregarding pretender magic paths, the only nations with access to water and death magic to cast Hidden in Snow but lacking in earth are MA Caelum, EA/MA C'tis, EA Niefelheim, MA/LA Jotunheim, and EA Sauromatia.

Given the gem cost of this spell, the mage must get multiple earth picks to be worth the cost, otherwise you could just trade for some earth gems and use empowerment instead.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Hidden in Snow is therefore a spell of very limited use, and still quite weak for its niche of providing earth magic to nations with water and death due to its unacceptable level of risk - just one or two failed castings will likely exhaust your gem supply and set you back many turns. This problem is further exacerbated in MP games where trading is allowed and one has the option to empower in earth without taking on such risks.

If the balance of this spell is supposed to be based on its performance in MP games, then it is certainly in need of improvement. One guaranteed mage with one guaranteed pick in earth magic would be a good way to start out, and you can reduce the chance of additional earth picks to keep its power level in check too.

[Meglobob]

Zath said:
Given the path requirements of this spell, the mage is only worthwhile if it gets picks in earth magic. Without picks in earth magic, you might as well just cast Streams from Hades for guaranteed water and death magic.

The expected number of mages per cast is 1 (random between 0 and 2), and the chance for each mage to get at least 2 picks in earth is 1/2 (from 3x 50% picks), so on average we can expect to spend 110 water gems for 2+ levels of earth magic.

Empowering two levels of earth from scratch costs only 80 earth gems, is guaranteed with no chance of failure, and can be used on any mage of your choice with the desired combination of magic paths.

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Personally, I'm not attracted by the mages, at all.
I'm LA Atlantis, often, and have w3d2 mages, quite a few with random air or earth.

I don't want the whole rationalization for this spell to be the mages, I just want them to be the gravy. I'm interested in the Unfrozen/Unfrozen Warriors, thank you very much.

[Kristoffer O]

Meglobob said:

Excellent post by Zath.

Hidden in Snow as it stands is currently a, 'no brainer' not to cast.

I am playing MA Caelum in MP at the moment and for the record I cast stream of hades to get D3 and found a amazon mage to get 1E and traded for earth boots. Far better than casting a 55W gem spell and 100% certain.

Don't get me wrong the spell is a good idea, description great, thematically good, its the mechanics of the spell.

It needs tinkering with, give it a power boost, reduce gem cost or give more goodies for the gem cost.

I suppose I am playing MA Mictlan in the same MP game and have already cast Hidden in snow once. I'm quite satisfied with the results and I suppose intend to continue casting the spell.

- The unfrozen actually thanked the Totl, Lord of Light, Enemy of Darkness, for their release from the Caelian ice prison. They claim Lord Flasheart wronged them in ancient times when they exterminated the Yazatas once living in the Caelian mountains. Now they are intent on vengeance, and it is only through Laws and stern justice thet they are prevented from finishing their ancient task of eliminating the Yazatas and their descendants.

Of the three paths available to the mage only water is readily available to mictlan to any greater extent. The addition of unfrozen mages is a splendid way to use gems. After a one empowerment it is better by far to cast hidden in snow than empower another of your other mages in death or earth. If you get an E2 guy you can then get trolls or whatever.

Also, I find the kokythiad less sexy (she is actually fear inspiring ). Easily killed by stray arrows and stuff. Stealthy though. And she needs waterempowerment for many users, wich is the same path as the spell. Simpler to empower in death only and use watergems for the casting.

[Kristoffer O]

> Personally, I'm not attracted by the mages, at all.
I'm LA Atlantis, often, and have w3d2 mages, quite a few with random air or earth.

> I don't want the whole rationalization for this spell to be the mages, I just want them to be the gravy. I'm interested in the Unfrozen/Unfrozen Warriors, thank you very much.

That, on the other hand, is a sentiment I can agree on. I wouldn't mind the spell being more expensive and more effective warrior-wise.

[Meglobob]

Kristoffer O said:
- it is only through Laws and stern justice thet they are prevented from finishing their ancient task of eliminating the Yazatas and their descendants.

...and it came to pass that one day the unfrozen were released from the laws and stern justice which prevented them in there vengenance. They marched into the lands of Caelum and the Seraphim where in there very first battle where refrozen and buried deep in the ice, never to resurface.

Shortly, thereafter the kingdom of Mictlan fell and Totl was banished from the world, only to return as a feebleminded tartarian to serve as Lord Flashearts jester...

[PvK]

I see Zath's line of argument, but it's overstated and focused on one perspective. The mages are not the only valuable units produced, and you'll generally get several mages in the effort used to get an E2 or E3. Saying the other mages and troops aren't "worthwhile" is a narrow argument. Even if your main purpose is to get an E2-3 mage, the fact that you get other mages and troops doesn't mean they have zero value. The chance that you may get more mages and units than you expect, or that you may get them sooner or cheaper, also has value - it just depends on whether you choose that value, or whether you prefer sure things, which is a preference, not an absolute value. As for "just empowering a mage" in Earth magic, that's not so easy when you are a nation who lacks earth magic, and it results in an existing mage getting better, not getting a bunch of other mages and unique troops as part of the deal.

From a balance and flavor perspective, I'd say it's good that it is uncertain and has significant cost, because otherwise any nation able to cast Hidden In Snow could be considered to also have E2-3 magic, which would blur the distinct strengths and weaknesses of the nations' path variety.

I like the idea of making it more expensive and giving more of the unfrozen troops.

[Sir_Dr_D]

I used the spell in one game, when I was LA Atlantis. My opponent at the time was double blessed Mictlan. The reason I cast it was for the extra magic paths, but I was happy with the troops. I ended up casting it a second time as much as for the troops as the mages. when I sent them into battle against Mictlans main army, I cast darkness, and placed the unfrozen at the front lines. I lost many of my other troops, but practically all of the unfrozen survived. Even in later battles, without the darkness, and the unfrozen still on the front lines, they did just as good against the Jaguar warriors.

I find hidden in snow a strong spell. For undead the troops have great stats. They have high hit points, high defense, high magic resitance, and chill. The leaders make decent thugs, and there is good potential for the mages. There may be better spells, but if you are only at level six in research, it can be a good strategic option to use.

[Zath]

Lazy_Perfectionist:

I would argue that LA Atlantis is better off with simple Claymen for troop summons if you're stuck with too many water gems, especially since the Angakoks can amass much large numbers of them with a couple of boosters. Claymen are about three times as efficient in terms of HP/gem, are easier to research, and they can at least go underwater for a nation that always starts on the coast. For better long term payback, you could also make 5 Bottles of Living Water that could be reused indefinitely while helping you both on land and in water.

Kristoffer O:

If I am not mistaken, Hidden in Snow is not accessible to MA Mictlan's national mages. This would indicate to me that you are likely casting Hidden in Snow with a pretender or a mage summoned by your pretender, and that this spell was only available to you after some diversification in magic was achieved. With that in mind, I think you would have been better off just sticking 2E on your pretender instead of going in a circle and risking vast amounts of water gems for access to earth magic.

PvK:

I am afraid that what you perceive as narrow is to me just getting to the point. Hidden in Snow is a poor spell for solely troop summons, and a poor spell for solely mage summons. Bundling two poor functions together in this case does not produce a good spell, because the effort put into this spell could be better spent in its specialized counterparts instead for greater overall gain.

Risk is a cost that must be accounted for in any investment of resources, and in the case of Hidden in Snow the risk of getting hosed by the random number generator outweighs its potential benefit. Hidden in Snow is certainly a nice flavor spell and could serve the purpose of wasting gems like the level 1 to 5 summons usually do (I don't mean that negatively since games in general need dud options for players to experiment with), but it is quite lacking in terms of giving water magic some punch. As this last function seems to be the intended purpose of Hidden in Snow, I think concerns over its power level are not entirely unfounded.

Sir_Dr_D:

Hidden in Snow could be useful if you needed troops in a hurry for a decisive battle, but I think 5 Bottles of Living Water would have done you more good if you have the oppurtunity to deploy them in a couple of battles. Water Elementals lack protection, but they have better attack and defense, and their four AP attacks can deal with both chaff and whatever blood summons Mictlan comes up with. You can also use them with Darkness since they are blind, and their higher defense will take better advantage of your opponent's lower attack too.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Zath... What couple of boosters?

Oh... does Claymen scale up with levels in water? I hadn't noticed that before. Still, only a quarter of my Angakoks can do this - sometimes.

Regardless, the reason I cast Hidden in Snow as Atlants is three-fold. First, the chill aura. Second, the fact that it provides its own leadership. Third, curiosity, and the interest in finding a decisive battle for them to fight.

Winter wolves are better, from a pure chill perspective, but are also magical beings, and vulnerable to magical weapons. They have a place in my armies, but a limited one (though I think it would be interesting to mass them).

Not only are the Unfrozen neither magical or mindless, they come with their own commander, all the time. If one of my outposts are under considerable, but not overwhelming threat by my enemy, any Angakok can sail across the seas, summon the Unfrozen, and continue to do whatever I need him to do. Meanwhile, my Tungaliks and lesser armies will be trooping across the ocean floor. If I happen to get an Unfrozen mage, I round out the army with some Winter Wolves to harry the enemy. I also have the local Tungalik summon some dispossessed spirits to hold my flanks- even when you're lucky, there's room for more undead. Especially when every turn a unit is paralyzed is another fatigue penalty they're taking, in addition to being a target.

Unfortunately, the army I just described didn't have a chance to fight, since Ctis came under attack by Ermor, and withdrew from my anticipated clash.

The key factor about Hidden in Snow is that it's enchant six. Sure, there are better summons along the conjuration path - thats what its for, after all.

But look at what I get with the enchantments school.

Enchant 4:
Claymen (I'll have to take another look, but I'm worrying about cold fatigue)
Behemoth (cold resistantant trampler)
Pale Riders (can replace Winter Wolves as light cavalry)
Twiceborn (protect my favorite mages)

Enchant 5:
Winter Ward - You'll see
Undead Horde - Temporary measure, at best, but chaff can be very useful.
Send Tupilak - limited in use, but can be an useful, if overpriced assassin. Fear few mages or priests, thanks to your hitpoints and magic resistance, just be prepared to go down to bodyguards unless they succumb to friendly fire (happens more often than you'd think).

Enchant six:
Hidden in Snow
Frost Dome (nice, but easily circumvented)
Rigor Mortis (Keep away from living armies, but if you've got a nice undead death or twiceborn wight mage...)
Ziz (got fear? attack rear!)
Grip of Winter (the star)

All that list above? Can be ignored. Isn't that important, though does provide strategic variety. IMO, the real reason to cast Hidden in Snow is Grip of Winter.

If you have cold scales already, the chill aura and effect of Grip of Winter is increased, and does a nice job of knocking out enemy mages. If you don't have the cold scales, you'll have to resort to Wolven Winter. Once you get up to 3, you start seeing every normal nation take an encumbrance penalty. If you're facing a coldblooded nation, this is incredibly effective, allowing your Tungaliks and Angakoks to focus solely on undead slaying.