OT: Insightful (re: Amish shooting)

[dmm]

Phoenix-D and Imperator Fyron,
Even though we are very far apart in our beliefs about God, the very fact of our having a nonvitriolic discussion about it shows that we share many of the same moral values. I conclude that you are not Xiati or EEE. As such, you are worthy of treatment other than eradication or slave labor in my mineral mines. Therefore, since I have to go, I will let you have the last word and not respond any more in public. If you want to keep talking after your final rebuttal, send me a private message.
dmm

[cshank2]

Okay, guys. Let's drop the religious debates.

Afterall, we all know that every other deity pales in comparison to Cthulhu, our dark god.

Amen.

[Mephisto]

Renegade 13 said:
If society and the justice system showed that there would be no tolerance for crap like that, and the punishment actually befitted the crime, crime wouldn't appear to be such an attractive thing.

Unfortunately every statistic says that this is not the case. And we can easily see this in some Islamic countries as well where the Sharia rules. If you rape a women you will get killed, if you are a thief you will lose a hand. But crime is still rampant in many of these countries.
A deterrent only works if you think rational about a matter, weighting loss and gain. But many crimes are committed in a state where rational thinking is no longer present. And you have to get caught in the first place to have a deterrent work.
Actually, if the risk of getting caught is high even "low" deterrents work very well. Statistics show that blue collar crimes dropped significantly when more pressure was put into detecting such crimes and bring them to court and public. The shame to stand in court and lose your career did have quite an effect.
So, our aim should be to detect and bring to court crimes with a high probability. And this is something that would help many violated women as well. How many women are beaten because the man can do it without fear that it might see the light of public. But how many will beat a women if it is a) brought to public and b) considered a crime by the public and neighbors (if the public doesn't care, then your are completely on your own ).

[Fyron]

dmm said:
Every major religion I can think of has a lot of moral code in common.

Indeed, since they all base their moral codes on common human morality. It's just the same as most religious mythologies (in the sense of the stories and such that comprise the teachings of the religion's culture, not some tacked on "explicitly false" connotation) using a lot of the same basic symbols in similar ways; the way colors, numbers, etc. are used in one religion are very similarly to how they are used in many other religions. We all evolved from the same source, so much of the basic thought patterns and instincts that make up the core of a human's psyche end up being the same. People everywhere have more or less the same genetic predispositions.

Basic tenets of morality have to do with humans being social animals; it harms the group to kill each other, to rape each other, to steal from each other. It helps the group if humans cooperate towards larger goals, help out others in need, provide their skills to benefit the group. Thus, as humans evolved, they evolved basic predispositions to not do these things. As intelligence grew ever more refined, naturally these basic social needs would become codified into "law," when the concept of "law" began to be developed. As basic spiritual beliefs started developing into organized religions, such inherent social needs became codified into belief systems. Since all humans have the same base genetic dispositions, religions the world over tended to develop along similar lines.

It's a matter of psychology; particular religious belief doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it. Of course, you could always argue that God set us up to develop that way. That is not a falsifiable argument though, so it can't be "proven" either way.

[ZeroAdunn]

Actually Fyron, it can be proven, somebody just needs to go find god, and have him explain it all? Anybody able to do that? No, okay then, lets disconnect morals from god for this argument and stick to what we know.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I am convinced God exists, by my own personal experience

The simple idea that some portion of the populace has yet to be so convinced does not negate my experience. Nor does the fact that I can't scientifically prove my anecdotal experience.

However, saying that I can't prove it to myself is to make a blanket judgement of every single experience of my life - The vast majority of which you know nothing about and do not have the right to do, anyway.

[Renegade 13]

Mephisto, I get the impression you might be a defense lawyer

Dmm, I would argue that some of what is in the Bible would be considered to be highly amoral today. The taking of slaves? The castrating of captured men/boys? That kind of argues against human morality being passed down from God, who would most likely have a higher sense of morality than what the Bible contains.

(Note, I'm using the Bible as an example only, since Christianity is the only religion I have any knowledge of, and shouldn't be construed as an attack.)

[rdouglass]

Morality is a purely human concept.

God is sovereign so morality is not relevant.

I know it sounds lame but God doesn't have to explain anything to us humans. There are stories in the Bible where God instructs a leader to kill *all* traces of another people or village. If the leaders did not follow his command, He punished those leaders as well for not following His will.

That would not be moral by any human standard. But that's the point; God is not human but He is sovereign. Putting morality and God together just doesn't work in any explination that would satisfy any logical human. So don't bother trying; it's a stupid arguement. God doesn't have to explain *anything* to us yet we will have to explain *everything* to Him.

We *will* have to explain to Him our reasonings and our belief (or lack of) that we post here on this forum whether you choose to believe that now or not. I know what I want to be able to say....

[Mephisto]

Renegade 13 said:
Mephisto, I get the impression you might be a defense lawyer

Actually ... no. I'm *supposed* doing IT contractual law but in effect do everything the firm is throwing at me.
But the the university courses about criminal laws and the source and nature of crime weren't wasted.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

rdouglass said:
Morality is a purely human concept.

God is sovereign so morality is not relevant.

I know it sounds lame but God doesn't have to explain anything to us humans. There are stories in the Bible where God instructs a leader to kill *all* traces of another people or village. If the leaders did not follow his command, He punished those leaders as well for not following His will.

That would not be moral by any human standard. But that's the point; God is not human but He is sovereign. Putting morality and God together just doesn't work in any explination that would satisfy any logical human. So don't bother trying; it's a stupid arguement. God doesn't have to explain *anything* to us yet we will have to explain *everything* to Him.

We *will* have to explain to Him our reasonings and our belief (or lack of) that we post here on this forum whether you choose to believe that now or not. I know what I want to be able to say....

The only one I remember is the Isrealite invasion of the promised land - And that was explained as due to wickedness.

I don't know about you, but I can easily envision a society so corrupt the only alternative is destruction.

Anyway, this thread was originally about violence against women. Let's shift back, shall we?