SC's vs Thugs

[Oversway]

There is definatley a line that keeps units, no matter how they are equipped, from performing in the SC role. Thats basically what I was trying to determine. If you have that, you can basically quickly look at a unit and determine if it could be deployed and utilized as a SC would.

This game has too much variety to have rules that easy. It depends on what you can equip, what magic you can cast, and most importantly, what armies you are facing.

[Cainehill]

Not to mention, how much you're willing to empower critters that aren't usually considered SCs. GoR a tarrasque and empower it a bit, and it certainly falls into the potential SC class. ( I did this in a game on the World map - think it had air, water and fire all at 2 or 3, making it a very big way to say "hello" by cloud trapezing it in )

[shovah]

Morkilus said:

It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.

its called a joke

[Truper]

From the man who coined the terms:

apoger said:
New Classifications


A while back I coined the term Supercombatant as a description of super high power units. Over time players have started to use this term in ways that are different than the initial meaning. This has caused some frustrating conversations, and subsequent confusion. Simply put, the Dominions community needs more naming conventions so players can communicate with more precision.

Many players have started using the term Supercombatant for almost anything larger than heavy infantry. That isn't very useful since the scope of units that are more potent than heavy infantry is fairly large. As such I am now suggesting two new classifications, and redescribing the term Supercombatant.


THUG

Simply put a thug goes out and beats things up and has a reasonable chance of surviving. Thugs don't beat up high power armies, and they aren't meant to be invincible. They are meant to be cheap and efficient ways of applying a beat down.

Some examples of thugs would be:
Neifelheim Giant
Hydra
Wyrm (no/little magic)
Vanjarl - with magic weapon and casting mistform
Jotun Herse - with a few choice magic items
Troll
Lava Warrior
Knight

As you can see there is a hefty power scale fluctuation even in the thug classification. However these guys are not Supercombatants and that is what I am trying to make clear.


SLAYER

A Slayer is a unit that has been cultivated to be powerful enough to wreck conventional armies. This is really a specialized sub-class of supercombatant. The Slayer is built with cost cutting in mind, to make it as cheap as possible and still be able to disperse conventional forces. Slayers are not meant to deal with mages or magic creatures. They are used primarily as an early game expansion aid, and as attack/defense while player nations aren't fielding much magic. During the late game when potent magic is available, Slayers are usually relegated to raiding duty.


Some examples of slayers would be:

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

Heliophagus
Wraith Sword, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Pendent of Luck, Ring of Regeneration


SUPERCOMBATANT

Supercombatants are built in an attempt to walk onto a battlefield alone and clean house versus any opposition. The potency/penetration of the spell Paralyze has made life a bit tough on Supercombatants and players of Dom2 are using more thugs and slayers than they did in Dom1. Still it's fun to use them, and they can still be effective. Just keep in mind that they are very powerful, but not invincible.


An example of a supercombatant would be:

Nataraja
Earth magic - 4
Air magic - 2
Nature magic - 3
Wraith Sword, Faithful, Charcoal Shield, Starshine Skullcap, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Anti-Magic amulet.
On entering battle it casts, Invulnerability, Mist Form, Personal Regeneration, Elemental Fortitude, and then attacks

Supercombatant and Thug have become a permanent part of the Dominions lexicon. For some reason, Slayer never caught on.

[shovah]

thug is fun to say, sc sounds fun but slayer is just.. well... slayer. lets all try to use slayer a little more

[Morkilus]

Aren't the Abysian assassins called slayers? Makes sense that the word went out of style if people don't want to get confused. How about "Conans"? I have plenty of books where, on the cover, he's standing on a pile of militia/light infantry/heavy infantry. I guess we could say "tanks", if you want to bring in the MMO jargon

[Oversway]

I don't see how a 6s Manticore nor a heavily equipped Heliophagus "is built with cost cutting in mind"

[shovah]

the manticore one is just un-equiped, and i wouldnt say that heliophagus is 'heavily equiped'

[Vicious Love]

Boron said:
First i didn't want to sound know-it-all, i hope you didn't get this intention from my post .

Not at all. Erm... sorry I gave the impression that I got that impression, I guess.

I am personally no big fan of SCs. Problem is that you never can't design your SC to survive all possible threats.

Well, yeah. Thugs are always expendable, SCs... not so much. Especially since a true SC often calls for a unique artifact or two. I think that's another loose guideline for drawing the fuzzy line between thug and SC.
I don't really like SCs either, unless I know precisely what sort of opposition I'll be facing. Still, if you've gone to the trouble of securing some of the more powerful unique artifacts, you owe it to yourself to give them the most survivable chassis you can find.

I said Arlabests, not X-bows . An Arlabest does 17 ap damage, a X-bow only 10.

14 in the unmodded game, but that extra 4 AP damage is still pretty significant.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.

But what's more important and that makes me normally rather dislike SCs: The enemy will also have mage support or thugs.
If the enemy has a combination of high damage troops and anti-SC mages you can't protect vs. everything.

Not always true. No SC is utterly indestructible, all can be stalled until turn 50, all can be easily paralyzed with Petrify and, yes, all are tremendously susceptible to Drain Life. Those two spells aside, though, there are still SCs that are virtually immune to lower-end mages and unspecialized, general-purpose thugs, save in vast numbers.
With the right chassis and the right combination of unique artifacts, you can field a regenerating, lifedraining, self-reinvigorating, elemental-immune, magic-resistant monstrosity. There will still be counters, but your opponent will have to put some thought into them in order to be cost-effective.

[shovah]

a fun tactic is to get a load of flying sc's in one place as if massing for an attack then when the enemy brings over his anti sc mages shoot right past them