your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Sheap]

I do not think the VQ is overpowered any more. Previously she was a little strong. But as it is only a few races can really afford her. Sure (almost) anyone can take her but she will lose much of her effectiveness. And even for those races which can afford her, it's not simply that she is just as good as before for them. They can simply better afford the sacrifices that must be made.

Compared to the liches she now has worse dominion, and always had worse physical stats, but gains etherealness, regeneration and flight and is less flammable. But she costs 40 points more and has worse path cost. Built in the typical VQ-as-SC-way, that's going to add up to about 70 points extra cost over a comparable-magic lich, with worse dominion. This really seems like a fair deal to me.

Someone is going to be the best SC pretender. As long as the price is fair, that's OK.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.

That's because I've been in all of two games that have started since then, both of them as Caelum, one of the nations that still CAN afford it. Maybe if you actually played in more games that I was in, or hell, there *WERE* more games to play, you'd see more GK.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:
I don't think nerfing the VQ into oblivion just to make people choose other Pretenders is a reasonable objective to aim for.

I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

[SelfishGene]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Stormbinder:
To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon.

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You could take a Son of the Sun. I mean you *could*....

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

Yeh - the VQ may be a little over-powered still, but mainly only for a couple of nations / themes. More importantly, it isn't so much overpowered that there aren't possibilities that are at least on a par with it. For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ.

the "problem" now with the vq is that the races who can still afford her , mainly caelum and abysia are already good races without vq .

this makes them even more desireable . from my short experience now abysia + caelum are under the 5 first chosen races in most offered games .

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You missed my point. Yes, you can build an uber-VQ with Abysia or Caelum (also with Pangaea, also with Ulm, also with Jotunheim). But with those same points, Abysia and Caelum can also build unGodly Virtues, PoDs, etc, that are _JUST_ as potent as the VQ. Their only problem is when they die or get feebleminded, they don't shrug it off the way the VQ does. (Albeit Pan's Carrion Dragon shrugs off the feebleminding.)

[Boron]

ok true . but all in all they are not so much cheaper than the vq .
especially for abysia the d1b2 of the vq is just nice because with only little empowerment there she can summon vampire lords .

all in all the pod + the virtue are about 100-150 points cheaper than the vq so about +3 scales .
this is the price for immortality etc.

but both need to be equipped in the best possible way you can if you want to use them in combat mid-lategame .
the vq can be equipped but it is no 100% must you can simply degrade her to a forger / summoner + occasional attacker not of the main enemy army but raiding armies etc still unequipped .

the immortality bonus is not that great but is good from psychological viewpoints .
if you are e.g. 80% sure to win the battle you can use your vq but perhaps you don't use your pod/virtue .

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

Yeh - the VQ may be a little over-powered still, but mainly only for a couple of nations / themes. More importantly, it isn't so much overpowered that there aren't possibilities that are at least on a par with it. For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ.

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the "problem" now with the vq is that the races who can still afford her , mainly caelum and abysia are already good races without vq .

this makes them even more desireable . from my short experience now abysia + caelum are under the 5 first chosen races in most offered games .