Draconian Mod Under construction - Page 4

Thilock_Dominus · #31 August 2nd, 2004, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandman:
Endoperez and Sindai have both made good points, and I agree with them. Apart from the gold cost, the weaknesses of this race are trivial. Their strengths are equivalent to three normal nations.

1.Flying
2.Scaly
3.Bite
4.Fire Breath
5.Fire resistance
6.Powerful mages of Fire, Air and Astral
7.Decent mage priests
8.The most flexible mage in the game, bar none. Who cares if he's capital only?
9.SC assassins.
10. Almost unlimited searching and forging opportunities.
11. Excellent province defence. Probably.

Their biting ability alone could carry a nation. There aren't that many units with multiple attacks, and they are often expensive or have limitations. These guys have a secondary attack as a racial feature. They're going to chew (literally) through the opposition. And that's just one of their minor abilities.

Point taken.

johan osterman · #32 August 2nd, 2004, 08:20 PM

Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection.

Boron · #33 August 2nd, 2004, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Storm Dragon
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Thilock

2 questions first to your abbreviations :
heal is that recuperation ability ? or regeneration ?

MIR = magic resistence or ? MR would be a less misleading abbreviation i think if that really should mean magic resitence

for evaluation how high gold costs should be is the knowlegde of slots important ihmo

furthermore : what are their magic path(s) ?

if they "only" have head and 2-3 misc slots and no magic path(s) the dragons should "only" cost about 300-400 nonsacred or 500-700 sacred .

if they furthermore have :
body slot : +50/100 gold cost when they are normal/sacred
per magic path point :
+25/50 gold

this way i think balance according to the jotun niefel giants etc is a bit ensured .

since dragons and giants are natural enemies and a niefel jarl has some magic abilities + all slots but "only" costs 500 sacred gold i think he is a good bench mark for the costs of dragons .

P.S. : liga would you please share how you come to exactly 6/15/20 permutations ?
for 5+ i think it is :
12 possible permutations : (A5E ,A5W ,A5F)x4 = 12

so with 6 randoms the chance for 3+ is probably even higher than you calculated .
it is a combination of 2 probabilityformulas i think .

thnx for either proving me wrong again and explaining your number of permutations or correcting it to the even higher percentages in advance

Thilock_Dominus · #34 August 2nd, 2004, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection.

Some thinks it would be a good Idea with recruitable dragons to the theme.

okay I'll change the Mir to 17

The Elder is changed since the old list, it have 2 fire 2 air and 1 element random

Thilock_Dominus · #35 August 2nd, 2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

MIR = magic resistence or ? MR would be a less misleading abbreviation i think if that really should mean magic resitence

ooops my fault

Edit: heal is recuperation

[ August 02, 2004, 19:38: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Boron · #36 August 2nd, 2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection.

the 20 mr were my evil influence i guess

i thought because they only have like a doom horror head + 1-2 misc slots or perhaps even only 1 misc slot but cost about 800-1000 gold at least they need a high base mr .
otherwise it is just too frustrating to have a very expensive dragon for which you saved long and get it killed repeatedly e.g. by ryleh mages casting mass soul slays and the like .

my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be

Arryn · #37 August 2nd, 2004, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boron:
my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be

That's where you went astray. A Doom Horror is supposed to be nastier than a dragon. Just think for a minute the sorts of images that the words "doom" and "horror" bring to mind, then consider what something called a "Doom Horror" (note the two capital letters) might be capable of. A dragon may be terrifying to behold, and capable of horrific carnage, but a creature that bringeth Doom is another order of magnitude entirely.

Boron · #38 August 2nd, 2004, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:

quote:
Originally posted by Boron:
my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be

That's where you went astray. A Doom Horror is supposed to be nastier than a dragon. Just think for a minute the sorts of images that the words "doom" and "horror" bring to mind, then consider what something called a "Doom Horror" (note the two capital letters) might be capable of. A dragon may be terrifying to behold, and capable of horrific carnage, but a creature that bringeth Doom is another order of magnitude entirely.

i just LOVE dragons

the doom horror is a special dominions creation

in many fantasy games dragons are really powerful .
and in dominions 3 of them are pretender gods .
so if they advance to real godhood they are much more powerful than a doom horror

and even with 20 mr for a dragon a doom horror is still nastier in dom 2 anyways

in 1 on 1 combat he still kills Thilock's dragons mostly i think because he has higher def + attack than the dragons + his astral claws will kill the dragon in no time .

Thilock_Dominus · #39 August 2nd, 2004, 10:03 PM

New Unit list:

C = Commander
** = Capitol restricted
*** = Need a temple
**** = Need laboratory

Temple Servant - C ***
HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50)
Holy, Heal, Flying, Female

General:Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 240 gold/ 5 Resources

Temple Priest - C ***
HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 astral, 2 air, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350),
Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 450 gold/12 resources

Temple Lord - C
HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1
STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival,
Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot: 15622 + 4096

Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12)

Cost : 380 gold/35 resources

Temple Guards
HP: 16 PROT: 7 MORALE: 14 MR: 12 ENC: 4 AP:10 Move: 1
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), Holy, Heal

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Silver Scale Mail, Round shield

Cost: 70 gold/ 40 resources

-------------------------

Draconian Lord - C
HP: 16 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Spear (602), Bite (20)

Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20)

Cost: 150 gold/18 resources

Draconian City Guards
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move : 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 10 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), fortress guard bonus (+2), Flying

Weapon: Draconic Halbard, bite (20)

Armour: Scale mail

Cost: 22 gold/ 10 resources

-------------------

Draconian Pyro Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources

Draconian Storm Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Lightning Breath, Mountain Survival, Lightning res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources

Pyro Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost: 35 gold/ 22 resources

Storm Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Shock res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost : 35 gold/ 22 resources

--------------------------

Draconian Apprentice - C ****
HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 2
STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11

Abilities: 1 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying.

General: Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Draconic Dagger (9), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost : 180 gold/ 2 resources

Draconian Elder - C ****
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Fire, 2 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival.
Fire res (75), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 360 gold/ 10 resources

----------------------------

Storm Dragon - C **
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Pyro Dragon - C **
HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Temple Dragon - C **
HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Scout and regular infantries under construction.

[ August 02, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Boron · #40 August 2nd, 2004, 10:39 PM

first : looks good

i post some minor problems i see :

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
New Unit list:

C = Commander
** = Capitol restricted
*** = Need a temple
**** = Need laboratory

Temple Servant - C ***
HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50)
Holy, Heal, Flying, Female

General:Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 240 gold/ 5 Resources

no problem here

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Priest - C ***
HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 astral, 2 air, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350),
Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 450 gold/12 resources

2 problems here :
1: Fire res: (75) means 75% right ?
afaik there will be no possibility via items / spells then to make them 100% fire resistent .
2:450 gold cost and astral 2 : this is an invitation to many many nations to mind duel you to death .

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Lord - C
HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1
STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival,
Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot: 15622 + 4096

Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12)

Cost : 380 gold/35 resources

i think here the cost is too high . he is flying and has "only" 10 protection . if your enemy has any x-bows 2-3 hits will surely kill him i think .

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Guards
HP: 16 PROT: 7 MORALE: 14 MR: 12 ENC: 4 AP:10 Move: 1
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), Holy, Heal

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Silver Scale Mail, Round shield

Cost: 70 gold/ 40 resources

too high resource costs ihmo

he only has 7 protection so nothing hard to forge but with 40 resource costs higher resource cost than any ulm infantry . or a better comparison unit : an caelum iceclad has 43 resource costs but iirc 18 protection for that .
so here the high gold price is already enough for balance reasons i think

.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

-------------------------

Draconian Lord - C
HP: 16 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Spear (602), Bite (20)

Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20)

Cost: 150 gold/18 resources

Draconian City Guards
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move : 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 10 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), fortress guard bonus (+2), Flying

Weapon: Draconic Halbard, bite (20)

Armour: Scale mail

Cost: 22 gold/ 10 resources

-------------------

Draconian Pyro Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources

no problems here