MP Game -no Quickhost closed(Ret.of the Rejects)

[Reverend Zombie]

Originally posted by Mark the Merciful:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mardagg:
How about disabling the score graphs btw?

I like score graphs on. Mostly I think it's reasonable that everyone have some idea what's going in the world.

Mark

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The stock response is, of course:

"use your scouts and/or spies to figure out what's going on"

and

"score graphs make the advantage of nations with good spies less relevant."

I vote for off.

[Sheap]

First I should ask: What is the time of day (including timezone) when the turn should be generated?

I definitely want score graphs on. They don't give you enough information to do anything except know, in general, where you stand. I think every player should have this information, otherwise they may suddenly find they are in bad shape and not have an opportunity to correct it.

You can say "just use your spies." Having to blanket the entire world with spies #1 increases micromanagement by a huge amount, #2 gives an advantage to the empires that actually have useful spies (or lots of money) and #3 doesn't really increase the fun factor of the game. Finally there is still information, such as research, which can't be seen at all, and income, which you CAN see with spies, but is a tremendous hassle to do.

[ July 11, 2004, 18:34: Message edited by: Sheap ]

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Sheap:
First I should ask: What is the time of day (including timezone) when the turn should be generated?

I live GMT +1,but I have no preference there.
Since this game is not quickhosted,everyone should be able to adapt to the hosting time and play the turn in between 24 hours.
Also with no quickhost,you are able to only play a part of your turn and return later to finish it without fearing that it is quickhosted in between(thats why I like it more than quickhost on).

Concerning the score graphs:
There are several pros and cons.
IMO we should only play without score graphs if all players agree to this,since they are an important aspect of multiplayer games (and its normal to play with score graphs on).
Lets play with score graphs enabled therefore

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Sheap:
I definitely want score graphs on. They don't give you enough information to do anything except know, in general, where you stand. I think every player should have this information, otherwise they may suddenly find they are in bad shape and not have an opportunity to correct it.

You seem to be in the minority, then: The by-and-large accepted standard is that score graphs should be off, for a number of reasons, such as that it disadvantages nations that have better scouting and spying abilities, and for precisely that "suddenly find they are in bad shape" thing: Most people, upon discovering that they are in bad shape, start wimping out of the game: They go AI, or worse, go AWOL. This tends to greatly disturb game balance, because if a stronger player suddenly has his opponent replaced with an AI, he grows even stronger, faster: This sets off a chain reaction of everyone ELSE going AI, and pretty soon the entire game collapses.

You can say "just use your spies." Having to blanket the entire world with spies #1 increases micromanagement by a huge amount

Knowledge is power, and forewarned is forearmed: Most players who are any good tend to regularly blanket their opponent in spies and scouts anyway.

#2 gives an advantage to the empires that actually have useful spies (or lots of money)

Having good spies is *SUPPOSED* to be a national advantage!

#3 doesn't really increase the fun factor of the game.

Says you. I happen to enjoy trying to be deliberately secretive and misinforming my opponents about my technological and military progress.

Finally there is still information, such as research, which can't be seen at all, and income, which you CAN see with spies, but is a tremendous hassle to do.

Research can be extrapolated based on what spells your opponent uses for summonings and in battle, which in turn requires that you spy on him and watch his battles with your scouts and spies, unless you want to find this information out the hard way by attacking him personally.

[Sheap]

Before I get to arguing, I don't want this to in any way disrupt the timely starting of the game. Everyone please get your vote in and once there is a majority I will put up the server

You seem to be in the minority, then: The by-and-large accepted standard is that score graphs should be off

I'm not sure how accepted this standard is. Of the people that weighed in so far it is 50/50 as to who likes score graphs and who doesn't.

it disadvantages nations that have better scouting and spying abilities

Nations with good spies have plenty of advantages already. They can spy on well defended enemy provinces with less risk of being caught, are more likely to have more and better spies in enemy territory when they are needed, and usually have special abilities such as inciting unrest or assassination. The default setting is to have score graphs on, meaning that the "natural" balance of the game is to play with them on.

Most people, upon discovering that they are in bad shape, start wimping out of the game: They go AI, or worse, go AWOL

Which sucks, but (from the game reports I have seen) there are only a few players who will wimp out of a game just when they start to feel they are losing. In most games players like this develop a bad reputation and people stop wanting to play with them. I would also point out that, even in games without score graphs, players still bail whenever they feel like it. So score graphs off does not actually solve this problem. It also seems somewhat wrong that one must trick someone into playing.

quote:
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#3 doesn't really increase the fun factor of the game.
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Says you. I happen to enjoy trying to be deliberately secretive and misinforming my opponents about my technological and military progress.

Spreading misinformation is one thing, but this is something else. Scouts are cheap and any player who wants to put in the effort of spreading them everywhere, then counting up all the province coins, counting castles, replacing losses, and generally going through an enormous amount of micromanagement, can get the same information they would get from the score graphs. Only the players who want to go through all this hassle get the information. Other players, faced with this daunting task, just give up. Games are supposed to be enjoyable pastimes. Success in game should be based on investment skill, tactical skill, diplomatic skill, and knowledge of the game system, not on how much unpleasant micromanaging work one is willing to tolerate.

Research can be extrapolated based on what spells your opponent uses for summonings and in battle, which in turn requires that you spy on him and watch his battles with your scouts and spies, unless you want to find this information out the hard way by attacking him personally.

The information gained from spies is not even really the same as the information gained from the score graph. You can do (once again) more work, and convert spy-information into some approximation of scoregraph-information.

Again, players are faced with the choice of doing all kinds of disagreeable scutwork, or losing the game. Anything which deliberately makes the game unpleasant, in my opinion of course, is inherently bad.

[ July 11, 2004, 21:02: Message edited by: Sheap ]

[Mardagg]

Just some thoughts:
Both of you have good points,indeed.
Personally I dont mind playing score graphs on/off.
With score graphs enabled you get nice information about what is going on right from start(which you cant with graphs off,since massive scouting takes time).
These informations can be very important for all kinds of diplomacy and make the life of the 1"uber-nation",if it exists,more difficult,since players more likely will ally against it quite fast.
Also you have something interesting to do every turn,when waiting for the next hosting time

Score graphs off make scouting more important and also more time consuming,thats right.
I very much like the feeling of not knowing exactly how strong my neighbours are and whats going on in other parts of the world because this results in a different diplomacy throughout the game,since exchanging informations between nations about "who is strong" or "who wages war" is more important.

Sheap has a very good point though:
Score graphs on is the natural option.
Also I think that most Multiplayer games are played with score graphs on,this seems therefore the normal setting.
Just For example,on Mosehansen server I think it is still impossible to disable them,therefore most players who play games over there,are used to score graphs
Now,since I didnt mention anything about the graphs when creating the topic and writing down the settings,most players for sure didnt even think about the possibility of disabling the graphs and maybe some of them wouldnt have wanted to play this game with score graphs off.
It seems logical for me because of this,that we play now with graphs on and skip more waiting until all players have voted,maybe resulting in a 6 vs 6 draw .

Another thing to consider:
Sheap is the host...and the host always is right

[ July 11, 2004, 22:01: Message edited by: Mardagg ]

[CUnknown]

I abstain on the vote of score graphs. Either way is fine with me, although I really wish there was an option to allow players to get a peek at them once every 10-20 turns or so. That would be cool.

[YellowCactus]

My vote can be purchased for the paultry sum of two-hundred pounds of gold. (I'm sitting this one out. Now there's a nice odd # of votes)

-YellowCactus

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by CUnknown:
I abstain on the vote of score graphs. Either way is fine with me, although I really wish there was an option to allow players to get a peek at them once every 10-20 turns or so. That would be cool.

This would be great.
Nice idea!

[Mardagg]

So,we have a total of 12 players now,Gandalf Parker has still not chosen a nation though.
Here is the final player list(in order of appearance):

Cohen(Abysia--Blood of Humans)
Boron(Marignon--Diabolical Faith)
Cainehill(Man--Last of Tuatha)
Gandalf Parker(nation undecided)
Sheap(Jotunheim--Iron Woods)
Reverend Zombie(C�tis--Desert Tombs)
Norfleet(Caelum--Return of the Raptors)
Mark the Merciful(Mictlan)
djtool(Pangaea--New Era or Carrion Woods)
YellowCactus(Tien Ch�i--Spring&Autumn)
CUnknown(Ulm--standard or Iron Faith)

Mardagg(Vanheim--Helheim)

The game is now closed and as soon as Sheap has set up the server,Pretenders are ready to upload.
Please renember that only certain themes are allowed for each nation.
The detailed list of the settings/allowed themes can be found at the start of this topic.

How about disabling the score graphs btw?

[ July 11, 2004, 12:26: Message edited by: Mardagg ]