Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
if I understands you correct
The Vampire Queens "power" lays in the easyness she is turned into a cockie cutter pretender!

Not merely a "cookie cutter pretender", but the ease with which she can be built into a number of SCs. Is this a BAD thing, though? After all, the VQ is useful really, for just that one thing. Her innate magics are not conducive towards any kind of a bless effect that is of much use: neither the death nor blood blessings are of much use in general, and focussing on either death or blood will more or less gut her ability as an SC. Trying to turn her into a truly potent SC is so expensive in points, that even playing strong dominion with scales is really not a sound plan with her. If you it half-assed, the VQ isn't really an impressive fighter at all.

So you can turn the VQ into one really useful thing only: A squasher of regular armies (and newbies). Of course, the ability to squash newbies is a meaningless trick: Newbies, are, by definition, bad at the game, and trying to balance the game for people who are BAD at it, rather than concentrating on what SKILLED play looks like, is a recipe for a boring game with no depth.

So in the end, at great cost in nation points, the VQ can be turned into a single, highly potent SC, that is not, by any means, even close to unstoppable, as a wide variety of easily available countermeasures exist. Is that really such a problem?

[Gandalf Parker]

I played a game with some new players and I used the Lord of the Hunt with Carrion Woods Pangaea. I used the LH to walk all over their territorys dropping maenads. It wrecked havok with their plans for quite awhile until they sunk enough into defense in every province to stop the maenad attacks. By then I had Black Heart and turned him into a godly assassin so they had to crank the defense to over 20 in every province to try and catch me sneaking. By then the carrion army ruled the world.

I dont want to see Lord of the Hunt be the next target.

[Norfleet]

Hey, that's pretty funny. I like that. Neat trick. Of course, the advantage the Lord of the Wild has is that he's Pangaea-only, so people can't try to port the strategy to other nations: As a result, you won't see a deluge of Lord of the Wilds from wannabes.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Wikd Thots:
Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

I missed my plane

Um, did you *read* my post? I haven't seen your name before.

My manners are fine, thank you.

I haven't demanded anything of anyone.

I've expressed an opinion, and then, having been chastised, I expressed an opinion about others opinion about the opinion... etc (pant, pant, pant... )

I have he greatest respect for Gandalf, the mods generally, and certainly the devs. If there's somewhere that isn't readily apparent in my scribbling, ... please show me where I misrepresented the care and affection I have for this forum.

If anyone is getting attacked here, (which I doubt) it's arguably me. Is it just the grotesque effrontery of having thought about the game, tried to express those thoughts clearly on a point of ongoing controversy, and expecting people to respond constructively in an open forum about said game?

To quote the Funniest White Man in America (Circa 1978)

Well Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse Me!


Rabe the Non-Airborne.

[ May 07, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: rabelais ]

It appeared that Johan O thought the same thing that the 'unknown' presented Rabe, or did you casually ignore that. What may not be offensive or said in a way which is an affront to you, because you are the one making the claims, may sound very much like it to at least one other person. A not-uncommon communication problem, though whether it was intended or not is probably your main concern.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by calmon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

"Everyone" is using her because she is (far) the best SC in game in moment. Immortal, flying (fast) and stealthy.

She is good at the start of a game, because she can fight armies alone without fearing dead. She stops invading armies more or less easily in own dominion. If she fear an attack she just use 'hide' to prevent any (even teleport) battles. In lategame power and magic power - wish boost counts double and more for an immortal character (this can be a wished VQ too). Its better to invest in immortals then in others. Some more points are her ethereality, good resistants, regeneration, free vampires and her complete armable body. She is the chasis with most combinations of good attributes.

---

Yep, it's the immortality, imo. In a recent game (still in the early stages, actually), on turn 3 I lost my Pretender - one of the 2 I think is possibly superior to the VQ. Not the Allfather - the Carrion Dragon. A beefy, Carrion Woods Carrion Dragon, which I have ... some moderate experience with.

It wasn't a screwup; it wasn't stupidity, it wasn't even a catastrophic random event. Nope - I attacked a province with militia and light infantry, not even an obscence quantity thereof.

By fluke chance - a Water-2 mage was in command. Frozen Carrion Dragons aren't much fun.

With a VQ (who could, and probably would, also have been sent to conquer a militia / LI province), no big deal. She's back in the capitol next door.

My Carrion Dragon? Well, turn 3, Carrion Woods doesn't have many priests. So it took a while to call him back, during which time there's no asskicking and conquering going on, because all the carrion lords / ladies / centaurs / squirrels I can conjure are used for calling him back; ditto black dryads.

And when he comes back, 5 or 6 turns later, of course he's lost a level of ability in 5 different magic paths. 101 Damnations! If only I'd had a VQ instead, I wouldn't have wasted 5 magic paths, 5 turns of no conquest and bad recruiting.

The VQ allows quick early conquest, if set up right. It allows good mid-game conquest. And it kicks arse in the late game, with proper equipment. Equipment which can be replaced far more cheaply and quickly than doing 4 or 5 empowerments.

It's not Norfleet - he wins because he's a good player. But the VQ has _NO_ weaknesses, not even fire (which it should), and immortality that also heals wounds, which it shouldn't (except for the Phoenix probably, only at rebirth.)

Mind you - I still think the CD is better overall than the VQ, certainly when it gets pumped up via Carrion Woods vice base / NE. But you'll never see 16 Carrion Dragons in one game.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
why Rabe shouldn't say he thinks the VQ is "broken" and needs to be "fixed." That's hardly what I consider offensive language. I have trouble believing that the devs are as overly sensitive to criticism as you're portraying them to be.

His isnt so bad. Not as bad as some.

Its more the total impression Im feeling. But you are probably right. It shouldnt matter how things are worded. Im sure any programmer would be willing to go back and look at something no matter how its referred to them. I dont think I would and I havent put nearly as much work in the stuff I program. But Im probably just a cranky "old guy"

---

I've been a programmer for a really long time. And sorry, but imo being told something is "broken" is pretty polite, cordial, and reasonable. Being told that something is "****ed" isn't uncommon, in my experience, and even there, I personally didn't take offense. It was ****ed - but, for instance, in one instance the fault lay in Sun's libraries, but try convincing a user of that when their program crashes.

What phrasing do you think people should use? "Excuse me, I don't think the VQ is as wonderful and perfect and cuddly as it could be?" (Or, "The only way this program could be any more supercalifragilistic would be if it didn't crash and lose half an hour or an hours work when I mouse clicked a seeminly stuck menu 10 times in 5 seconds."?)

[ May 07, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

What changes wont put the Ghost King next on the list? As a combat god you cant make her equal to Wyrm or Nataraja

Why not? From the flavor text, it sure sounds like the VQ is supposed to be a caster, not a combat god anyway. The VQ is pretty much the only SC with immortality. I suppose you could supercharge a bog mummy, but again, only with one race.

If the VQ was an Ulm-specific god we wouldn't be having this conversation. If the Allfather (or carrion dragon) were universal, I'm sure there would be raging discussions on thier strengths as well... but seeing as how neither is immortal I still doubt this to be the case.

All VQ defenders: please submit a list of reasons why the Cyclops, Titan, Shedu, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Son of the Sea, Lord of the Wild, or Lord of the Night are superior to the Vampire Queen. Please stop with the "She's not overpowered" arguments and explain why all these 125-150 point chassis are superior. When you are done explaining this, perhaps I will concede ground. All these chassis are not broken. She is broken.

In case you are keeping score, none of the above are immortal. Only two fly. None are erthreal. None of them have two seperate resistances. Neither of those with resistances also fly. None of them have more item slots than the VQ. Quite a few have less.

Do you grasp the concept that she's a 110 point pretender and thus should not be superior? Why is this so difficult to understand? Do you not think the VQ is one of the top 5 chassis in the game? Why then does she not cost as much as the top 5? Why is she only 110 points?

You VQ defenders have conveniently avoided this issue. Please, for the Last time. Answer this question or concede defeat. She is clearly overpowered. Your inability to either recognize this or admit as such is beyond belief.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I played a game with some new players and I used the Lord of the Hunt with Carrion Woods Pangaea. I used the LH to walk all over their territorys dropping maenads. It wrecked havok with their plans for quite awhile until they sunk enough into defense in every province to stop the maenad attacks. By then I had Black Heart and turned him into a godly assassin so they had to crank the defense to over 20 in every province to try and catch me sneaking. By then the carrion army ruled the world.

I dont want to see Lord of the Hunt be the next target.

I don't get it. Wouldn't 1 PD be sufficient since the maenads would autorout?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
All VQ defenders: please submit a list of reasons why the Cyclops, Titan, Shedu, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Son of the Sea, Lord of the Wild, or Lord of the Night are superior to the Vampire Queen.

The Lord of the Desert Sun and Lord of the Gates are horribly broken right now, due to their counterproductive autosummons that will quickly die and cause a rout. They're not really a good measure of performance and should probably be greatly reduced in cost, or this annoyance fixed, as this renders them nearly worthless as SCs. However, the LotDS *DOES* have a Fire-2 and Nature-1 base, which can make him a good choice for building towards a fire and nature bless. The fact that the lions are groundpounders also means his morale isn't QUITE as shabby as the Moloch's. If this silliness were fixed, the LotDS would make a respectable warrior.

The Shedu is, admittedly, somewhat of a dullard. He is very strong, and he tramples, which can be viewed as both a strength and weakness. However, the weakness of the Shedu, in my opinion, is irrelevant to the matter: Plenty of chassis options are unattractive. The problem lies with their being overpriced, not with everything else.

The Lord of the Gates is also a 50 point chassis. By your admittedly flawed comparison criteria, it should be inferior on those grounds alone. You'd be better off comparing the Lord of the Gates to the Prince of Death, who is definitely superior for the same cost....does this mean that it's the Prince of Death who is broken, since he outclasses a chassis that is intended to fill the same niche, or the Lord of the Gates that is broken, because he sucks for the above reasons, plus his useless shades give him the indomitable battle morale of the Moloch?

The Titan and Cyclops both possess superior physical stats, which Illwinter seems to price at a premium in a pretender chassis. Both are very physically strong, and the Cyclops has an excellent 20 base protection(23 with his basic E3). The Titan also has a base dominion of 3, as opposed to the VQ's 2...and as a VQ would definitely be better under high dominion, you're going to have to shell out extra for this privilege.

Both also possess level 3 magics, which give them a leg-up on a useful blessing effect, Air and Earth respectively. Both of these are potentially very useful blessings. In addition to their ability to provide an affordable and useful L9 blessing, which the VQ lacks, they're also capable of fighting....but this is not their primary function! The fact that they can provide a bless effect, IN ADDITION to their raw physical might, is why they're priced so. Remember: Buying your VQ magic paths for battle only makes her more potent. It won't do an especially good job filling national magics. It won't give the rest of your nation any useful benefits. It is not an appropriate strategy for all nations.

The Lord of the Night is physically powerful as the above, AND he flies, AND he is an assassin. Full slots, too. He's accompanied in battle by fiends of darkness, and while this opens up that annoying rout weakness, fiends of darkness are formidable....especially in assassinations!

Do you grasp the concept that she's a 110 point pretender and thus should not be superior? Why is this so difficult to understand? Do you not think the VQ is one of the top 5 chassis in the game? Why then does she not cost as much as the top 5? Why is she only 110 points?

Because a VQ, chassis alone, is crap. Try it. just take an empty VQ chassis and pit it in mortal combat against a basic Titan chassis. Script them to the best of your ability.

Guess what? The Titan will hand the VQ her ***. Why? Because the Titan is physically stronger, his magic is more useful, and he can crush the VQ in one hit. It's only when the VQ has been loaded down with some *300-500* points in magic paths specifically for the purpose of battle that she becomes useful. This is a far larger investment than a basic Titan and cannot be considered a fair comparison.

You cannot assess the quality of a pretender based purely on its chassis cost. It is simply untrue that a pretender with a 125 point chassis must be superior in every way to a pretender with a 50 point chassis. The chassis is not everything. You also have to consider the magic, the scales, and the dominion, and how that affects the functionality of the nation.

You VQ defenders have conveniently avoided this issue. Please, for the Last time. Answer this question or concede defeat. She is clearly overpowered. Your inability to either recognize this or admit as such is beyond belief.

I believe I have just addressed your points now.

Yes, the VQ can be tweaked into a generally more effective SC, particularly against normal troops. However, she has other weaknesses that the other pretenders may lack, and pure ability as an SC is not the only barometer of performance. If it weren't for the VQ's ability to fight, she would be rather useless, since she does not offer anything else to play off of: Any chassis can play scales, and you'd be better off with a low-cost purely physical chassis, like a no-magic Wyrm, which gains immortality through expendability. A bless, on the other hand, requires a good toe-hold start into that magic path, or it will grow hideously expensive. A fire-9 Vampire Queen impresses nobody, as the ruinous cost of trying to shoehorn a blessing onto something which has no leverage in that department, combined with the fact that you have essentially pissed away the strengths of the chassis by trying to make it do something it is bad at, will not give you a winning strategy.

The Vampire Queen is not in all ways superior to the Titan, or the Cyclops, or any other decent chassis: These chassis can give you things that the VQ cannot: Scales, blessings, or cheaper access to missing magics. The VQ, on the other hand, offers the potential to tweak into a monstrous SC....but only if you are willing to pay the price, which is *NOT* 110 points: You need magic paths suitable for casting your buffs, none of which comes natively on the VQ.....so you sacrifice a scale just to start it. You need strong dominion, for immortality is worthless if you can't even keep your dominion. All these costs add up to far more than just the 110 point chassis, something you are blissfully ignoring. And finally, the VQ needs research to HAVE spells to cast. A physically mighty chassis like the Bull, or the Wyrm, or, best of all, the Carrion Dragon, can start kicking *** from turn 1 or 2.

Bottom line: Yes, the VQ has the potential to be a better SC, but is not, by default: accessories sold seperately, batteries not included. Yes, the VQ is better for some strategies. No, the VQ is not better for ALL strategies. No, the strategies which utilize the VQ are not inherently superior to the alternatives. No, the VQ is not suitable for all nations.

If the VQ were the end all, be all, Marignon, R'lyeh, and Atlantis, which cannot choose the VQ, would be considered the worst nations in the game. Yet it's Tien Chi, despite the fact that it has a VQ, which is popularly considered to be first against the wall when the Revolution comes.

Sure, the VQ is currently a popular item....but how many people, really, are making it WORK for them...and how many people are just being ingloriously smitten in spite of their VQ? If you believe the VQ is a magic bullet, you're welcome to take one, and dance with some experienced players. See how well she actually does. Don't just whomp newbies, then complain how powerful it was....against players who don't know how to play.

[ May 07, 2004, 07:00: Message edited by: Norfleet ]