SCs other than the vq

Originally posted by archaeolept:
of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though.

I wish you people would try to stick to your argument. When someone details a strategy that works to kill them that is easily implemented by 75% of the nations, suddenly the argument is changed "Well what do you do if they have alot of Dominion and build castles, huh? I obviously can't stop that either", then if that is answered it's "Well what do you do if they pour 600 astrals by wishing in to them, eh? I obviously can't stop that either".

You have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate. The very first of which is to define overpowered. It is Powerful and it does fill a niche and it is being effectively used by at least 1, if not more people. But since when is that overpowered? The same can be said for any number of different features in the game.

[archaeolept]

No.

The strat is abusive and broken. That you are so wedded to it indicates merely something concerning your psychology.

That people can use VQ's ineffectively is trivially true, and quite irrelevant.

Frankly, the game would be much better if VQs and clams were simply disposed of, like trash.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates. As well, I would think that certain unbalanced strats would be negated but only by the fact that beta-testers are consistently and coherently able to pursue advanced strategies and tactics. The game might still be unbalanced for the vast majority of players even if a group of skilled beta-testers is able to get around an inbalance.

Do you consider what you just said to be opinionated? obnoxious? offensive? I just thought Id ask in case things went further in that direction. I wouldnt want you to be unaware of the point where things went wrong.

The best-testing group has a wide variety of testers. Mass swarmers, formula fiends, nitpickys (for spelling and little stat errors), game-killer testers, and wasted-stuff boosters. Besides the point of 3 different language Groups, and 5 operating systems.

Besides all that, the devs are quite active and willing to listen to this group here (some have already answered in this thread in case you werent aware).

Please, if you fail to convince the majority how correct you are, then rant against them softly.

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by Zen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by archaeolept:
of course there are many ways to deal w/ a VQ. however, none of them really do anything, since she pops up again immediately. yah, dust to dust can work, especially en masse. Another SC can work, as long as you've been pursuing a clam/wish strategy as well such that you can stand up to her "magic power" X5 and "power". oh, and also when your pretender is killed, as will happen some good percentage of the time, you gotta pay the price. Not the VQ though.

I wish you people would try to stick to your argument. When someone details a strategy that works to kill them that is easily implemented by 75% of the nations, suddenly the argument is changed "Well what do you do if they have alot of Dominion and build castles, huh? I obviously can't stop that either", then if that is answered it's "Well what do you do if they pour 600 astrals by wishing in to them, eh? I obviously can't stop that either".

You have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate. The very first of which is to define overpowered. It is Powerful and it does fill a niche and it is being effectively used by at least 1, if not more people. But since when is that overpowered? The same can be said for any number of different features in the game.

---

I wasn't aware that I was a card-carrying member of "you people". The strat being discussed, and discussed implicitly for weeks, is precisely the combo of VQ (best w/ ermor), clams, and castling. I know what strat i'm talking about.

What counter strat have you layed out for dealing w/ the Norfleet combo? that's all I care about, since that's pretty well all I've been playing against for the past few weeks. How did you take out his ermorian castles? I mean, I'm sure you must have some experience w/ it...

you have failed repeatedly to make your arguments that it is overpowered by any estimate

I'm sorry? I believe the only time I have made an argument is in my prior post in this thread. how is that repeatedly? the only "repetition" is in your ducking the problem and being unable to lay out a reasonable and viable counter-strat to the (usually ermorian) uber-VQ/endless castles/wish clamming strat. And, hell, even if a counter strat can be detailed, this does not logically entail that there is a balance.

Again, how was it that you personally dealt w/ norfleet's strat? specifically.

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm quite amazed by how clueless the beta-testers seem to be about all this. I guess this is just an endemic problem w/ any small closed community - certain activities will become standard, and new variants just won't occur to those living inside the gates. As well, I would think that certain unbalanced strats would be negated but only by the fact that beta-testers are consistently and coherently able to pursue advanced strategies and tactics. The game might still be unbalanced for the vast majority of players even if a group of skilled beta-testers is able to get around an inbalance.

Do you consider what you just said to be opinionated? obnoxious? offensive? I just thought Id ask in case things went further in that direction. I wouldnt want you to be unaware of the point where things went wrong.

The best-testing group has a wide variety of testers. Mass swarmers, formula fiends, nitpickys (for spelling and little stat errors), game-killer testers, and wasted-stuff boosters. Besides the point of 3 different language Groups, and 5 operating systems.

Besides all that, the devs are quite active and willing to listen to this group here (some have already answered in this thread in case you werent aware).

Please, if you fail to convince the majority how correct you are, then rant against them softly.

---

I'm only referring to those beta-testers who have responded to this issue in these Boards. i have no way of judging any of the others, other than by the fact that this strat, which has been around for, what, a couple months, seems to be news to Kristoffer O. How could this be if the beta-testers had been testing this as well?

Again, as any given random nation, how was it that I'm supposed to invade these ermorian castles? oh, yes, by using many VQ invulnerable armies and then guessing which is the best castle to invade...

(since, if your armies aren't immune to the VQ... hahaha)

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I think we are all in agreement on the above issues.

As always, I think the problem is not really with the VQ so much as it is with the elemental armour. Get rid of the immunity it provides, and suddenly most mages would at least be able to damage her.

The castle and temple strategy can definetly be dealt with as well, it just takes careful planning. I almost managed it in a game as Vanheim, but the AI for my pretender killed himself with a shockwave rather than casting a useful spell.

Originally posted by archaeolept:
Again, how was it that you personally dealt w/ norfleet's strat? specifically.

If I forced myself to play against the same strategy/nation I would find the weaknesses in it. Would you like me to detail them, because Norfleet did fairly well. If you don't factor into the mix his attempts to counter what you will try to do, try these:

Dominion options: Preaching, Stealth Preaching, Marignon FoF, Cerimonial Faith, Restless Worshippers, Skeptics Starting with a Strong Punishing Dominion and placement of Temples.

Castle options: Multi-pronged attacks, Scouts+Gate Cleavers, Crumble, Ghouls/reanimators/Flyers, Stealth Armies attacking Castle.

VQ options: Really too many to list, you've said yourself that you know how to kill them, it's only the factor of them coming back for more the next turn, yes? If you need more ideas, I can list a few if you give me the nation you use.

[archaeolept]

well, the dominion doesn't tend to be a problem for me, since I spend a lot of effort preparing for his dominion swamp.

however, none of your castle dealing strats seem especially useful, or presuppose that I have a much greater number of armies than he does. especially since none of the forces you mention seem capable of dealing w/ a real VQ, or even some hastily gatewayed in national troops

and killing a VQ isn't so much a problem, as that all of your armies need the capability if they try to invade. and, at best, you do nothing to her.

Norfleet has played probably dozens of games around here. I'm sure you must have encountered him. What specifically did you do to conquer his castles?

[ May 04, 2004, 22:26: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm only referring to those beta-testers who have responded to this issue in these Boards. i have no way of judging any of the others, other than by the fact that this strat, which has been around for, what, a couple months, seems to be news to Kristoffer O. How could this be if the beta-testers had been testing this as well?

Again, as any given random nation, how was it that I'm supposed to invade these ermorian castles? oh, yes, by using many VQ invulnerable armies and then guessing which is the best castle to invade...

(since, if your armies aren't immune to the VQ... hahaha)

Well the strategy has been around and Norfleet has been doing well with it, but how many games win by doing that exact same thing in the exact same fashion? Most games Last at least a month, so if it's been around a month and it's 'so unbalanced I must pitch a fit' this it the point and time where it might be tested or not. The simple fact that KO didn't know about it could mean any variety of things, not the least of which is his desire to play with hammeringly bad scales and roleplayed pretenders.

Originally posted by archaeolept:
however, none of your castle dealing strats seem especially useful, or presuppose that I have a much greater number of armies than he does. especially since none of the forces you mention seem capable of dealing w/ a real VQ, or even some hastily gatewayed in national troops

Maybe you should try them before you talk. Castling every province has been around before Norfleet beat you with it. But maybe casual rejection of ideas is why you don't think them useful.